Sicko Revisited

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnis...665059-sun.php

Enough to make you sick
Government monopoly on health care is killing us financially and literally

By IAN ROBINSON


There is a good reason Alberta spends more on health than any other province in the nation -- $3,695 per person -- and yet we wait longer for care.


The Fraser Institute notes that if an Albertan sees a family doctor -- if you're lucky enough to have a family doctor, which in Alberta is fast becoming a mythical creature on the same order as a unicorn -- and are referred to a specialist, the average wait before actually getting treated is 19.5 weeks.



This is not good.



It is not even up to the sad standard set by other Canadian provinces.



Our American cousins look at such numbers and are appalled.



Yet there is a very good reason for this.



It is because the economic model for our health-care system, in Alberta and across the country, would be instantly recognizable to Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong.



Mao and Stalin didn't believe in the rights of individuals to make economic decisions on their own, and neither do those who become hysterical and cry like little girls denied tickets to the new Avril Lavigne tour when it is suggested an absolute government monopoly on health care is killing us, financially and literally.



We have taken the economic model of the Soviet and Maoist collective farm -- the result of which was generally widespread starvation -- and applied it to the delivery of health care.



Anyone surprised by the fact it doesn't work is probably also surprised Jack Layton isn't prime minister, the sun rises in the east, sticking a knife into a toaster hurts and that you can sit in a Calgary hospital emergency room suffering a serious gallbladder attack for eight hours before getting a shot of Demerol, which happened to the wife of a friend of mine recently.


Despite our institutionalized disdain in this country for all things American, if a U.S. citizen doesn't have health insurance and goes to a county hospital where medical care, as it is in Canada, is "free," the wait for treatment for a gallbladder attack is .... you guessed it ... about eight hours.



The average Canadian, with his much-lauded, universal medical system, is treated like the average American without health-care insurance



Countries that provide a compassionate and intelligent mix of private and public health care simply do better.



A recent survey of 28 countries that offer universal health care saw Canada place 26th in terms of medical outcomes for every dollar spent, 18th in access to CAT scans and 22nd in infant mortality.



Because of the presence of (gasp of horror!) capitalists in the systems outperforming ours, such as Australia, they have embraced the discipline of the free market, which delivers any product -- from iPods to heart surgeries -- more efficiently and effectively.



We place so low because if you're not rewarded for efficiency ... you'll be inefficient.



We used to have a mixed system in this country.


Some doctors remained in the public system. Others opted out all the way.



Some took publicly insured patients and extra-billed them.



That has all been taken away in the name of equality -- the same sort of equality lauded by Mao and Stalin -- and the result has been predictable.



This country saw health care costs rising and decided it would .... restore free market discipline?



Naw.



We decided to limit the number of doctors graduating and, in a peculiarly Alberta solution, blew up a freaking hospital without having built a new one first.



So we now have doctor shortages and hospital bed shortages and the only people surprised are the same ones wondering how come the sun rises in the same place every day.



It'd be enough to make you sick if you weren't afraid you wouldn't get timely treatment.

[/ QUOTE ]



Idea: Stop listening to Michael Moore and start listening to people who are actually experiencing your precious Universal Healthcare

[Case Closed]

[ QUOTE ]

Idea: Stop listening to Michael Moore and start listening to people who are actually experiencing your precious Universal Healthcare

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you get it. He spoke to at least 10 people who were actually living under socialized medicine and they liked it. You're just one person...10 to 1 are some pretty big odds. As a poker player I understand those odds, you're only right 1/10 times with regards to health care while Moore's movie is right 10/1 times. You'd have to somehow become 9 more people before I can even put you on the same level of Moore's documovie.

[tame_deuces]

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snip

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While Michael Moore is as credible as 'The Sun' headline , the article you quoted pretty much surpasses his bias in every regard.

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Idea: Stop listening to Michael Moore and start listening to people who are actually experiencing your precious Universal Healthcare

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you get it. He spoke to at least 10 people who were actually living under socialized medicine and they liked it. You're just one person...10 to 1 are some pretty big odds. As a poker player I understand those odds, you're only right 1/10 times with regards to health care while Moore's movie is right 10/1 times. You'd have to somehow become 9 more people before I can even put you on the same level of Moore's documovie.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol?

Are you trying to level me?

Your fuzzy math aside... are you saying that it's ok for 10% of people to have to deal with a system like this guy describes?

Aside from transplants that require a waiting list for obvious reasons... there isn't anyone in the US who would have to wait that long for specialized medicine.

Between Medicare and private funding sources, all you need to do as a US citizen without health insurance is fill out some paperwork and you're good to go.

And I'm willing to bet that 8 out of your supposedly 9 people who are "happy" with socialized care are people who rarely use the system.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
tolbiny,

I agree that responsiveness should be given a much higher weighting than the others (although I'm not sure whether it measures responsiveness for ALL people or just those who actually receive care - a crucal distinction). Do you agree that it isn't the only measure?

I'd say the US should probably be higher in the list obviously, but #1 is not accurate either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, but what would happen if, under my imaginary "idealized" ranking system, the US came in at like 9th or 12th and ahead of maybe Canada but not UK or Norway but not Spain or something?

[Case Closed]

Inso0,

Yes I was trying to level you. I will consider my attempt at a level as a sucess. I was poking fun at the fact that Moore, as usual, tends to stay away from any useful statistical analysis. Asking what appears to be random users of socialized medicine Moore gives us the idea that they are 100% pleased with this system. He paints a lovely picture that can definitely suck some people into thinking that all is well in this world. It's a sham of a movie and is just more socialist utopic fantasy.

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]
Inso0,

Yes I was trying to level you. I will consider my attempt at a level as a sucess. I was poking fun at the fact that Moore, as usual, tends to stay away from any useful statistical analysis. Asking what appears to be random users of socialized medicine Moore gives us the idea that they are 100% pleased with this system. He paints a lovely picture that can definitely suck some people into thinking that all is well in this world. It's a sham of a movie and is just more socialist utopic fantasy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I forget sometimes that I'm not reading OOT.

Your post, were it in OOT, is 100% serious something like 98% of the time.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnis...665059-sun.php

Enough to make you sick
Government monopoly on health care is killing us financially and literally

By IAN ROBINSON


There is a good reason Alberta spends more on health than any other province in the nation -- $3,695 per person -- and yet we wait longer for care.


The Fraser Institute notes that if an Albertan sees a family doctor -- if you're lucky enough to have a family doctor, which in Alberta is fast becoming a mythical creature on the same order as a unicorn -- and are referred to a specialist, the average wait before actually getting treated is 19.5 weeks.



This is not good.



It is not even up to the sad standard set by other Canadian provinces.



Our American cousins look at such numbers and are appalled.



Yet there is a very good reason for this.



It is because the economic model for our health-care system, in Alberta and across the country, would be instantly recognizable to Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong.



Mao and Stalin didn't believe in the rights of individuals to make economic decisions on their own, and neither do those who become hysterical and cry like little girls denied tickets to the new Avril Lavigne tour when it is suggested an absolute government monopoly on health care is killing us, financially and literally.



We have taken the economic model of the Soviet and Maoist collective farm -- the result of which was generally widespread starvation -- and applied it to the delivery of health care.



Anyone surprised by the fact it doesn't work is probably also surprised Jack Layton isn't prime minister, the sun rises in the east, sticking a knife into a toaster hurts and that you can sit in a Calgary hospital emergency room suffering a serious gallbladder attack for eight hours before getting a shot of Demerol, which happened to the wife of a friend of mine recently.


Despite our institutionalized disdain in this country for all things American, if a U.S. citizen doesn't have health insurance and goes to a county hospital where medical care, as it is in Canada, is "free," the wait for treatment for a gallbladder attack is .... you guessed it ... about eight hours.



The average Canadian, with his much-lauded, universal medical system, is treated like the average American without health-care insurance



Countries that provide a compassionate and intelligent mix of private and public health care simply do better.



A recent survey of 28 countries that offer universal health care saw Canada place 26th in terms of medical outcomes for every dollar spent, 18th in access to CAT scans and 22nd in infant mortality.



Because of the presence of (gasp of horror!) capitalists in the systems outperforming ours, such as Australia, they have embraced the discipline of the free market, which delivers any product -- from iPods to heart surgeries -- more efficiently and effectively.



We place so low because if you're not rewarded for efficiency ... you'll be inefficient.



We used to have a mixed system in this country.


Some doctors remained in the public system. Others opted out all the way.



Some took publicly insured patients and extra-billed them.



That has all been taken away in the name of equality -- the same sort of equality lauded by Mao and Stalin -- and the result has been predictable.



This country saw health care costs rising and decided it would .... restore free market discipline?



Naw.



We decided to limit the number of doctors graduating and, in a peculiarly Alberta solution, blew up a freaking hospital without having built a new one first.



So we now have doctor shortages and hospital bed shortages and the only people surprised are the same ones wondering how come the sun rises in the same place every day.



It'd be enough to make you sick if you weren't afraid you wouldn't get timely treatment.

[/ QUOTE ]



Idea: Stop listening to Michael Moore and start listening to people who are actually experiencing your precious Universal Healthcare

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in Alberta. What this guy says is only part of the story and is very biased.

Our healthcare system is messed up and part of this is due to brain drain and mismanagement and part of it is due to Alberta's government trying to privatize the healthcare system so they have systematically, over a number of years, reduced the budget for healthcare over and over again. So yah, our government run healthcare is beginning to suck because we aren't paying our doctors & nurses enough because our government is trying to privatize the system.

I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous and the idea of not wanting to help pay for other peoples healthcare who can't afford it to be extremely selfish and a little weird.

[GoodCallYouWin]

Of course you feel that way, that's how your teachers trained you to think.

[Money2Burn]

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I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous

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Everyone pays to go to the doctor.

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the idea of the government forcing you to pay for other people's healthcare who probably don't take care of themselves to be extremely disturbing if not a little wierd.

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fyp