EP limp medium PP call push

[levAA]

I'm still somehow unsure with these medium PP in early position like TT and JJ. This is from a 10/180 and i played TAG up to now. Villain was just moved to this table about 10 hands ago and hasn't played a hand yet.

The first issue is the preflop play - i usually limp TT while raise JJ in early position (at the usual tight tables, and mixing it up a little bit).

Here i would be most interested in comments how you play these PP (JJ,TT) from early position.

Second issue - calling the MP2's push - is more clear i think. as we should be in front of his range, being last to act i think it is standard - but of course i appreciate comments here as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

<font color="#CC3333">MP2 (t2810)</font>
MP3 (t6081)
CO (t4460)
Button (t8280)
SB (t1340)
BB (t885)
UTG (t3815)
<font color="#CC3333">Hero (t3595)</font>
MP1 (t1105)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t2810</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls t2610</font>.

[levAA]

bump

[4CardStraight]

It depends. With this stack size, you could open push and turn it face up and its slightly +EV. You can limp for a trap hoping for a push. You can limp and have a few callers and hope to pop a set or an overpair.

Kinda depends on your table... If they like to limp and allow limping, I probably open push. If they don't like limpers and AJ or something will push on you, thats fine too, you can limp and call a push.

If the table is normal issue tight, and 3bets mean great strength, you can raise and fold to a push from the nittiest, and raise and call a push from the loosest.

Yeah TT and JJ from early position are somewhat hard. At 20bb or less you can push them and turn them face up and its still slightly +EV. Maximize your EV based on your table, sometimes thats raise folding, sometimes thats raise calling, sometimes its limping and calling a push, sometimes its open pushing.

[levAA]

4cardstraight

thank you for your reply. this pushing JJ,TT from early position is a possibility and i usually do it with about 12BB or lower, while i have problems with pushing a hand with 20BB from early position.

it's not because i don't agree that it is a +EV move, but that i'm telling everybody i actually play JJ (or TT), as there is no other hand where i consider pushing early with that kind of stack.

therefor i will only be looked up by QQ+,AK,AQ, which still makes it a +EV move but very readable.

i agree with you that these cards in early position are hard to play.

to add another question: how do you play them with 50BB.

[ademjohn]

I think the reason 88 thru Jj is so difficult for players to decide how to play is because the answer varies depending on how that player plays overall. When I firs started to play i was a Tag player and since I raised or even player so few hands it was benificial for me to raise big with JJ and 10s since table image was tight. Now however I raise way too often for this to be effective so even though I raise it is usually smallish 2.5 -3 time bb. If you are a tight player your Js are better pre than mine for sure and you should bet accordingly.

[4CardStraight]

If we make a move that allows us to only be looked up by QQ+ AK, then it is highly +EV. Saying that it is "readable" is a problem suggests some misunderstanding. Our goal in poker is to maximize our expected return with each decision, not to be as confusing as possible to our opponents.

Playing a pair like TT,JJ from early position is difficult with this stack size, as we all seem to agree. The reason *why* is because no matter how we play it, it is THIN EV. If we limp and are called, we are not getting great odds to pop a set, and we are OOP with hands that dont like flops. If we limp and are shoved on we may have enticed the shove and need to call, and we might be crushed but need to call, and we might be crushed and need to fold, it depends on *WHO* shoves over us, so that decision will be hard, and thinly EV in either direction.

Many people have a problem pushing 20BB. I actually chronically play SS with 20BB and you can just take me on face value, open pushing 20BB is perfectly acceptable and profitable.

If your main concern is the mix of hands to properly push from UTG at this stack size, I would highly encourage AKo.

WTF? Is this moron actually suggesting we open push one of our best hands at 20BB from UTG? Can't we get more profit from AKo other ways??!!!?? NO, not really. Having AKo in our open push range allows for some of the mid pairs in our range to be a blended mix. Now when AQ calls us behind thinking we have guaranteed TT/JJ isnt he surprised. Any pocket pair that calls us thinking we pushed a low pocket is only getting a 50/50 and theres enough blind overlay for it to be profitable. (and if its lower than JJ- then we just showed that JJ can open push and be called by a worse pair for an 80/20) The main problem with TT,JJ,AKo here with this stack size is all the same. These hands have incredible value from our position. They serve to be the best hand at showdown. They WANT to see all 5 cards. But our position and stack size does not allow us to play good poker post flop with them. Stick it in. (Or dont, and just play way better poker than your opponents, with a thin stack, the worst position, and hands that often have to be folded even tho you are currently ahead... Your choice!) Just examine our play with any of the hands on a sample flop of Q87 rainbow. We are almost always ahead in equity with any of the three hands against many types of ranges that might flat call a small raise from us, yet, we are almost obligated to check fold or bet fold, and throw our equity in the muck.

4Card

[levAA]

very good post, that answers my initial question

thank you