Damned if you bet, Damned if you don´t

[Tryptamean]

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Do you fold AQ,AJ on flop?

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I do on the turn


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I think it is a mistake to peel flop in villian's spot with AQ/AJ

[Oink]

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Do you fold AQ,AJ on flop?

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I do on the turn


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I think it is a mistake to peel flop in villian's spot with AQ/AJ

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Ya I tend to agree.

My post should have been: "I would fold the turn at the latest"

[Apanage]

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if I CR flop with air/Ax

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If there is some dynamics between you two where you do this you should really put it in the OP if you want posters to take it under consideration

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No special dynamics between us.But as said in my OP he should be aware that I´m capable to CR this flop with all kinds of possible holdings.He must know that this is the perfect flop for a bluff.

I really thought that you peeled (because you´re the king of peeling) AQ and AJ sometimes on a turn like this.Don´t you do it because you think Kx hands are such a big part of an average TAG villains range?
Because I think that villain should bet turn 100% of the times if he just gets called on flop regardless if he has a K or not.

[Oink]

LOL. Just checked. You actually did post it in your OP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My bad

well, there is this one player on party who will c/r me on this flop with Ax and prolly less. Against him I am not folding before the river because I know he will be giving up.


But one thing is being capable of c/r'ing these kind of flops with air when you just defended your BB. Another thing is to do it vs a PF 3-bet. I mean, you need to be sure he knows you will do that before you can put him on that A.

C/r'ing the flop with AT in your position also seems spewy to me. I just muck it right there because its gonna be an expensive bluff and he isnt gonna fold a bunch of better hands unless he 3-bet light. Something like A5s and A8o. If he is a tight PF 3-bettor his range is more like ATo and A9s. So if you have AJ it makes no sense to c/r IMO. If you have A5 and you think he folds Ax right there its closer to +EV

Sorry for the rambling

[Apanage]

[ QUOTE ]
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Do you fold AQ,AJ on flop?

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I do on the turn


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I think it is a mistake to peel flop in villian's spot with AQ/AJ

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Well then you sooner or later will have to adjust.Because I then will CR this flop a 100% of the time and I will make money in the long run.AQ-A9 is a substantial part of your preflop range.Folding Ax on flop will make the decision to checkraise flop real easy.I don´t even have to take a look at my hand before doing it.

[Tryptamean]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold AQ,AJ on flop?

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I do on the turn


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is a mistake to peel flop in villian's spot with AQ/AJ

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Well then you sooner or later will have to adjust.Because I then will CR this flop a 100% of the time and I will make money in the long run.AQ-A9 is a substantial part of your preflop range.Folding Ax on flop will make the decision to checkraise flop real easy.I don´t even have to take a look at my hand before doing it.

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making a move on this flop is pure spew given the preflop action. I think either Hero or Villian continuing vs flop aggression with ace hi is a really bad RIO situation.

[Oink]

So if villain has 66+, A9s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo - which I consider a tight range - Ax hands that doesnt have a pair or a bdfd is about one third of villains range. (If I am using the stove correctly)

I have to admit that c/r'ing this flop with QJ or A5 in hero's spot is prolly +EV against someone who we suspect will be folding Ax no bdfd right there.

Good post Apanage. I enjoy finding leaks and for some reason I find the most when you are getting stubborn with your points. TY!

[Apanage]

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C/r'ing the flop with AT in your position also seems spewy to me.

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I think it is profitable.Depending on if we always follow up with a turn bet or not and our opponents tendencies.

Villains range of better hands:
AK = 9 combos
AQ-AJ= 24 combos
AA-66= 54 combos
KQ = 12 combos
KJs = 3 combos

We are getting 11:2 on our raise on flop if we fold a better hand right there on the flop.
If you are not concerned about getting 3-bet by a worse hand I think you should CR flop.And you shouldn´t be concerned if you intended to check/fold anyway.
I don´t bother to count on a follow up on turn.Since there is too many ifs and buts.

Edit: I see that you beat me to it.Interesting that we had the same preflop range.

[Oink]

One thing to note Apa.

When his range gets wider to like 44, A5s, A8o, K9s, KTo, QTs, JTs and possibly lower sc it makes much less sense to c/r Ax. In particular your better Ax like AT and A9.

Against a range like that I doubt you should be c/r'ing AT.

[Tryptamean]

I still think its a bad idea to make a move at this pot vs a tag. Just to clarify, I think villian should fold his Ax to a flop c/r here against another tag because a tag shouldn't make a move here. If that's not the case, then we can get into a sweet levelling war, etc.

Now, I don't think hero should try to make the villian fold his AQ/AJ because most tags will peel the flop, whether thats correct or not.

Another thing to consider is that if Villian 3bets (on the flop)only hands that beat hero (KK+, 66, AKs, KJs+, AKo, KQo), Hero will be getting 15:1 on calling that 3bet and he actually has about 10% equity. So, you put youself in a [censored] spot of folding despite really long odds, or seeing a turn in what is still a very bad RIO situation.