Yanks offer job to Girardi

[CharlieDontSurf]

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earl weaver routinely threw tantrums, got kicked out of games, handled the media like [censored], and his own players mutinied against him

my memory is not as good as it used to be. can you remind me how earl weaver's orioles did?

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hey man he didnt have steinbrenner breathing down his back.

did he create mystique?

was he a surrogate dad?

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Sublime I normally agree with your views on most sports issues. But if you truly believe that any manager, regardless of makeup/temperment/personality, who made the exact same in game calls/moves over the past decade would have won the same amount of WS's had the same amount of success, handled the media and Steinbrenner as succesfully as Torre than your a complete idiot.

[kyleb]

there you go, quote that evidence. really show him how stupid he is.

[CharlieDontSurf]

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"I'm not saying Joe Torre is a specific number of games won."

Yea dude, you are.

You are implying that Joe Torre is worth more than most great baseball players, as a manager.

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No I'm taking argument with Vyse in him saying that short of in game adjustments a manager has no true impact on his team or their performance which is total [censored].

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dude you said they would have missed the playoffs over a span of six years where they won the division by an average of 7 games.

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Wasn't implying they would miss the playoffs or lose the division every year but they def fall apart this year. Probably last year and maybe the year prior. I dont even remember how good Boston was prior to 04. Its doubtful that they win 4 world series and make the WS a 5th year in a row with some random manager especially one who reacts badly to the constant Steiny/media attention harrasment and lets it affect his clubhouse/players

[CharlieDontSurf]

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there you go, quote that evidence. really show him how stupid he is.

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I don't feel like digging thru behavioral psychology and group dynamic texts/documents to find supportive proof.

There is no way to prove it with statistics because there are not 30 NYY teams/environments and a control group.

Its a evident trait throughout basketball/baseball/football/countless other sports/the military/etc etc etc

The quality of leadership, including the personality from the head of an organization/unit has a direct impact on the capabilities of the people within that given organ/unit.

[kyleb]

the thought exercise is NOT replacing torre (who costs his team wins anyway, so any added wins for being a leader is a wash) with assani fisher. they're replacing torre with another "qualified" manager that baseball players look up to or whatever.

[craig]

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Wasn't implying they would miss the playoffs or lose the division every year but they def fall apart this year. Probably last year and maybe the year prior.

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Is Torre to blame for this?

craig

[CharlieDontSurf]

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it isn't total [censored] because they actually measured the impact of managers on similar teams as well as various other squads of players

managers all perform at basically the same level. the only adjustment that happens is that managers LOSE additional games by doing stupid [censored].

you could look it up if you cared enough to study the issue using the socratic method or you could just reference the great tim mccarver

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So basically your saying that Dusty Baker, if he makes the exact same in game calls/moves, has the same results as Joe Torre from 96-07 and the players perform exactly the same.

Or what he doesn't have exactly the same but has such a minimal effect that it is the difference of 1 game or less?

[CharlieDontSurf]

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the thought exercise is NOT replacing torre (who costs his team wins anyway, so any added wins for being a leader is a wash) with assani fisher. they're replacing torre with another "qualified" manager that baseball players look up to or whatever.

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me
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they have a much better idea whether he has the makeup of a good manager then some dude on a message board.

vyse
if a manager does absolutely nothing in terms of in-game strategy and etc. the team is actually better off. Few managers legitimately help their team.


So if Torre and Dusty Baker do nothing different in terms of in-game strategy and etc.(etc could be a lot of [censored] i guess)then their significance on the Yankees teams performance from 96-07 is the same in terms of helping the team win and be succesful.

This is essentially what I'm taking from Vyse and your argument.


A coach's makeup/personality/ability to handle chaos aka the Yankee FO/power struggle, Steiny, the media, the rich overpaid egotistical group of players, expectations has little importance in helping the Yankees be succesful and win.

[kyleb]

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it isn't total [censored] because they actually measured the impact of managers on similar teams as well as various other squads of players

managers all perform at basically the same level. the only adjustment that happens is that managers LOSE additional games by doing stupid [censored].

you could look it up if you cared enough to study the issue using the socratic method or you could just reference the great tim mccarver

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So basically your saying that Dusty Baker, if he makes the exact same in game calls/moves, has the same results as Joe Torre from 96-07 and the players perform exactly the same.

Or what he doesn't have exactly the same but has such a minimal effect that it is the difference of 1 game or less?

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you picked the actual worst possible manager. he is worth significantly less games to his team because he is a giant idiot.

anyway the yanks probably still make the playoffs with him as the manager despite being awful

[craig]

vyse
if a manager does absolutely nothing in terms of in-game strategy and etc. the team is actually better off. Few managers legitimately help their team.


So if Torre and Dusty Baker do nothing different in terms of in-game strategy and etc.(etc could be a lot of [censored] i guess)then their significance on the Yankees teams performance from 96-07 is the same in terms of helping the team win and be succesful.

This is essentially what I'm taking from Vyse and your argument.

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I don't think anybody would be able to make a case that it is that black and white, but I think (and could be wrong) the studies showed that it was negligible and/or wasn't measurable.

craig