Strat Question: pf raise sizing w/ premium hands in EP

[toymach776]

I was wondering how position determines raise sizing in NL full ring games. If you are in early position (UTG-MP1), and have a premium hand such as AKs or JJ, do you tend to raise more or less than you would with the same hand in late position? I know that there are many other things to consider when determining raise sizs such as looseness of opponents, # of limpers, postflop SPRs, etc. But I am just curious how position alone dicates raise sizes.

I have heard two arguments that conflict each other:
(1) is that you should raise MORE in early position because you dont want to play a hand OOP and would prefer to take it down now.
(2) is that you should raise LESS in EP to keep the pot smaller since you will be OOP th rest of the hand.

I used to subscribe to (1) but now think that it is the incorrect one. It seems to leave value at the table because you are giving opponents exra incentive to fold when you have a premium hand, and causes you to build a bigger pot OOP, which is not good at all.

(2) is beginning to make more sense to me as the better strategy.

I would appreciate it if some of the mor experienced players out there could give opinions/insight into this. Thanks guys.

[bottomset]

if you raise less in EP, you encourage action from people IP on you

I like 4x as default utg-mp3(maybe co) and 3x on the CO/BTN

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
if you raise less in EP, you encourage action from people IP on you

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Would you not prefer action with premiums, even OOP - as opposed to more frequent folds?

[Sandviper23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you raise less in EP, you encourage action from people IP on you

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Would you not prefer action with premiums, even OOP - as opposed to more frequent folds?

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on what type of game you are in and what reads you have on your opponents.

There are some opponents that will call a 10X raise utg and will commit theirselves by calling a flop bet

Then you have some tables that will fold around to MR utg.

The other thing to consider is how you personally are able to play your big pairs post flop and whether you are able to extract maximum value based on their holding or if are unable to lay it down when needed.

I like the standard 4x myself and i'll sometimes mix up my PFR utg with different hands and raise amounts, but rarely.

[diebitter]

My experience is it doesn't matter much overall, as long as your consistent.

What I mean by this is for the most part:

Same size betting == Betting less early == betting more early

in terms of overall profitability.


This is true at least for nl100 and below, and probably nl200 too.


Going through all the reasons why one is better than another is worthwhile though to help your thinking about the game and others that do this, and would be a good pooh-bah post for someone.

[swainy]

i raise 4xBB from any position if I'm opening the pot because i want to maintain consistency.
I used to raise 3x in EP but once i had one caller it would become easier for a second, then the BB gets in on the action too.
BTN i sometimes just do 3xBB when the players in the blind are tight and will let me steal their blinds all day

[ActionStan]

...snip....
(1) is that you should raise MORE in early position because you dont want to play a hand OOP and would prefer to take it down now.
...snip...

It depends a lot on the stack sizes. If you are playing where stacks are around 100BB deep, you'd like to size your raise where you can build a large enough pot to commit on the flop when you likely have the best hand. It's not that you want to take it down now, it's that you want to structure the pot in such a way as to take away some of the advantages of position.

...snip...
(2) is that you should raise LESS in EP to keep the pot smaller since you will be OOP th rest of the hand.
...snip...

In my mind, this leads to bloated, multiway pots with hands that don't play well multiway. I don't know that this is winning poker.

[MadMike]

I've experimented with both approaches, and while it's table dependent, I don't think it makes that big a difference. For a while I was varying my raise sizes just so that I could do a pot-juicing 3xBB raise after a few limpers to get a big multiway pot with pocket pairs without it being too obvious... but then I figured it wasn't any better to juice the pot than make a normal sized raise and take the pot down with a c-bet IP postflop- or occasionally stack someone when I hit the flop big and they had too good a hand to fold.

Bottom line- focus on tougher postflop decisions. Figuring out optimum preflop 3BB vs. 5BB raise UTG isn't going to make as much a difference in your winrate as being able to read hands and assign equity to ranges postflop.

[ActionStan]

I think consistency is a little overrated. You really don't need to mix up your play that much to disguise your better hands. Really, you only need to get caught once or twice raising with less than premium values to cause the table to question every raise you make.

After that, you can aim your raises at getting the job done that you want to get done. A couple of examples. I like to raise a little more with big pairs and AK so that I can commit more readily on the flop. With small pairs in EP, I'll play a variety of different lines. If the table is weak, I'll make bigger raises and represent a hand I don't have. If the players how are in late position when I am in EP are stronger, I'll make smaller pot sweetening raises with those same small pairs knowing that the only way I will profit on this sort of hand is if I hit a set in a bloated multi-way pot.

Anyway, when you make a raise, preflop or whenever, you should be thinking about what you hope to accomplish in the rest of the hand. I think that should drive your decision more then obfuscation through consistency.

[ActionStan]

When all is said and done, this is probably pretty true in terms of online poker. There is only so much latitude offered by the table. 3x and 4x get calls and 5x just doesn't. So, given the small number of choices, there just can't be that much difference.

Live is a whole other kettle of fish. Full ring live offers remarkable latitude on preflop raise sizing and good preflop bet sizing can have a large impact on your overall results.