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#1
09-05-2007, 06:36 AM
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200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
200-400 Mixed Game
Ace to 5 TD up to bat. I am in the bb with A, 2, 3, rag, rag. A solid player raises and the button cold calls (O'Neal for those who know). A little background info on the solid player, I had played with him a few days and hadn't seen him get out of line too many times if any at all. Also when he is running bad he seems to play cautiously, not value raising or value betting enough. At the time he was running slightly bad. 1st Draw: I draw 2, solid player draws 1 and O'Neal draws 2. Gin!!! I pull a 5 and 7. I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds. 2nd Draw: I stand pat and solid player stands PAT!!! WTF!!! So I check, solid player bets 400 and I call. 3rd Draw: I break the 7 and he stands pat. I draw a banana. I check and he checks and I feel sick, he tables 7642A. Is this just a standard case of position winning him the pot or my stupidity? Opinions seemed to vary at the table. 
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#2
09-05-2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
If his pat range doesn't include hands you beat then I don't think you have odds to call and break (remember your 6 is often not an out there, and he has to have at least one of your cards and more likely both). So you must fold.
If it does include even one (7542A) you're better off standing, and you have odds to call and stand (and call on the river) if he includes a second hand you beat (7543A). You also have equity from being tied, you might not even need him to have two hands you can beat. Your effective odds are 9:2, and you can win 2.5/9. I am not an expert, caveat emptor.
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#3
09-05-2007, 12:43 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
jkinetic,
When he coldcalls rather than 4 betting the flop (with a player still to act behind him) he is showing big weakness or super huge strength. The play is to bet/fold the turn and if he just calls confidently value bet the river. He cannot have a 65 here, he either is a complete pussy with 74 or you are good if he doesn't pop you on the turn. -DeathDonkey
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#4
09-05-2007, 12:47 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
I didn't work through the math in detail, but my intuition would be to agree with rchandra--- if you are getting the right odds to draw then you are probably better off patting. If you can't feel confident calling down then folding is preferable.
Let's see: you are beaten by 5432A, 6xxxx (5 hands), 7432A, tied with 7532A, but ahead of 7542A, 7543A, 75432. So even if you eliminate 76's, you are about 3.5/11 to be winning (2.1 to 1 odds). Drawing you are hoping to catch a 4 or a 6 (but sometimes the 6 is no good) so call it 4 or 5 live outs in 40 unknowns, odds of 9:1 or 8:1.
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#5
09-05-2007, 01:02 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
[ QUOTE ]
200-400 Mixed Game Ace to 5 TD up to bat. I am in the bb with A, 2, 3, rag, rag. A solid player raises and the button cold calls (O'Neal for those who know). [/ QUOTE ] 1300 in the pot [ QUOTE ] A little background info on the solid player, I had played with him a few days and hadn't seen him get out of line too many times if any at all. Also when he is running bad he seems to play cautiously, not value raising or value betting enough. At the time he was running slightly bad. 1st Draw: I draw 2, solid player draws 1 and O'Neal draws 2. Gin!!! I pull a 5 and 7. [/ QUOTE ] Nice draw, but not really gin--especially from up front, as we soon shall see... [ QUOTE ] I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds. [/ QUOTE ] 2900 in pot [ QUOTE ] 2nd Draw: I stand pat and solid player stands PAT!!! WTF!!! So I check, solid player bets 400 and I call. [/ QUOTE ] His bet makes it 3300, so you're getting a little over 8:1. [ QUOTE ] 3rd Draw: I break the 7 and he stands pat. I draw a banana. I check and he checks and I feel sick, he tables 7642A. Is this just a standard case of position winning him the pot or my stupidity? Opinions seemed to vary at the table. [/ QUOTE ] His position won the pot. I don't think you're stupid. But... 1. He drew to a 6 and played a 7. (He could have drawn to a 7 and hit a 6, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt.) 2. He raised btf. Why did he raise? To build a pot? To buy the button? I think the fact that O'neal was on the button has a lot to do with this, but I have to be honest and tell you that I don't know who O'neal is, but I bet SP knew and it affected his raise. There are 15 hands that are 1-card draws to a 6 or better, and 2/3 of them have a 6 in them. If his plan is, indeed, to stand on a 7 or better, a 7 represents 1/3 of his hits, so he ends up with a 76xxx 2/3*1/3 = 2/9 of the time. Could you have rapped pat on the end with your 75xxx on the end getting 8:1 on a hand you were 2:9 to beat? Maybe, but first you have to tell us... What was your plan before the first draw? (What were you going to stand on/draw to in various situations? What were you going to do with o'neal?) When SP drew one, what range did you put him on? What did you think SP needed to hit on his first draw in order for him to stand pat? Who is O'neal?
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#6
09-05-2007, 02:14 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
[ QUOTE ]
Who is O'neal? [/ QUOTE ] He is the guy in TT's avatar (spl?).
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#8
09-05-2007, 05:33 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
[ QUOTE ]
I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.
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#9
09-05-2007, 09:16 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play. [/ QUOTE ] Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish. -DeathDonkey
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#10
09-05-2007, 09:31 PM
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Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play. [/ QUOTE ] Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish. -DeathDonkey [/ QUOTE ] I play a made hand in his range the same, its unbreakable, time to fold. I disagree with the button cold call, but that seems to be prevalent with other good thinkers who mostly play live for some odd reason in 2-7 and Badugi. Post draw even YOU would play it the same. Its no secret that my old-man crush actually ends when he is in a full ring cash game. He is brilliant (when he is awake) in a low tourny, and in HU low games but thats about it from what I am aware of. No denying his tourny credits are phenomenal for a cash game player, the list is pages long.
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