($10) I get in trouble from the sb

QTip · #1 01-22-2006, 04:36 PM

Hi. Never posted here before, but I'm a limit player trying to learn NL SNGs. I've gathered a lot of info and posts, and I'm just getting started. So, please just flame away. I have a friend helping me learn, but this is only my 2nd one since having any speck of knowledge.

Villain is unknown

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t230)
MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t2770)
Button (t820)
Hero (t775)
BB (t760)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t30, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls t30, Hero calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button bets t80, Hero calls t80, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds

I guess folding here may be prudent, since I'm yet to see how the others will respond. Coming from limit, folding a four flush on the flop gives my hives...

Turn: (t310) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's hero's plan here? Does a donk bet have any value here? A check/raise?...seems I need some read

Let's say I check and villain bets 275, am I done?

Onaflag · #2 01-22-2006, 04:41 PM

Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.

Onaflag..........

QTip · #3 01-22-2006, 04:44 PM

yeah...ok. When I called, I remember my friend saying something like:

No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands
No Drawing Hands

So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

Onaflag · #4 01-22-2006, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, after I get involved, any advice for postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not from me. I'm a crappy post flop player. That's why I play SNGs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Onaflag.........

Slim Pickens · #5 01-22-2006, 05:46 PM

A big difference between NL SNG's and limit ring is that your implied odds will dictate everything here whereas you're really looking more at pot odds in limit ring. Anyway, the button's bet could really mean anything, so I think you should be folding that flop or putting a big check-raise. Your jack and eight may or may not be live. Your flush is only J-high. When you make a hand it will be poorly disguised.

If you do call, donking the turn only serves to scare him. I actually think you're ahead here a fair amount of the time now. Check-call small bets, but 275 is too much to call with second pair. You could consider semi-bluffing the turn, but I thin k you're better off doing that on the flop if that's the line you want to take.

crookedhat99 · #6 01-22-2006, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. It can only cause trouble when you see a flop with that hand. I'm also a former limit player and it took me a lot of money to unlearn the value of draws. The quicker you unlearn, the better IMHO.

Onaflag..........

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a horrible preflop fold. He's getting a billion to one for a billionth of his stack.

Prodigy54321 · #7 01-22-2006, 06:27 PM

I'm pretty sure this is a call preflop especially since at the $11s you can usually see a draw for a min bet.

call on the flop is fine for implied odds.

I'd call the turn for anything t175 or lower. You've probably gained a few outs or may have the best hand already, but your implied odds are worse out OOP on the river. If you hit the river, You'd probably have to push which (if the villain is decent will see that you probably it a flush..although that's not likely in the $11s and might be called by high pair) but you can't check and hope for another bet.

I hate the idea of donking or check/raising anywhere in this hand. I used to be a low limit player and sometimes think about doing this. but the main goal when calling this hand from SB early on is to see draws cheaply, get a lot of chips when you hit but lose only a small amount of chips when you miss.

a check/raise or donk might be slightly +cEV but early on in the game you need more than just slight +cEV since you are one of the best players in the tournament and have more +EV from just having chips

ryanghall · #8 01-22-2006, 06:31 PM

I agree with everything Prodigy said.

Call preflop is fine as long as you don't get carried away.
Call on the flop is fine with a flush and straight draw.
I'd check the turn and see what develops.

RYan

GtrHtr · #9 01-22-2006, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi. Never posted here before, but I'm a limit player trying to learn NL SNGs. I've gathered a lot of info and posts, and I'm just getting started. So, please just flame away. I have a friend helping me learn, but this is only my 2nd one since having any speck of knowledge.

Villain is unknown

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t230)
MP1 (t570)
MP2 (t1365)
CO (t2770)
Button (t820)
Hero (t775)
BB (t760)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t30, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls t30, Hero calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button bets t80, Hero calls t80, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds

I guess folding here may be prudent, since I'm yet to see how the others will respond. Coming from limit, folding a four flush on the flop gives my hives...

Turn: (t310) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's hero's plan here? Does a donk bet have any value here? A check/raise?...seems I need some read

Let's say I check and villain bets 275, am I done?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're one of my limit poster hero's, although I hardly ever post in any of the limit forums - I still read them often to pick up things here and there. So welcome to the forum QTip.

I usually fold this pf with that many callers. I may play along in levels 1 or 2 if the field is limited to one limper.

The 11s are a minefield and I've probably played as many 11s as any other poster unfortunately, and I've been playing them again on the weekends after moving to the 22s during the week. One thing to remember about the 11s is that you will be called more often than not regardless of what kind of cards your villains are holding, this can be good and bad.

On the flop, fold. With a draw, you are just bleeding chips off with your call. Your chips = power in level 4 and beyond.

Pay attention to the VPIP's of other players as well as your own. You will often notice the chip leaders in the 11s will have a VPIP well over 35. Thats normal and they are getting lucky. You need to find spots to take advantage of their laggishness when you know you are ahead. FWIW, my vpip in my last 300 tourneys is less than 7 in the first 3 levels. As the blinds go up, my vpip goes up dramatically.

Tight is right in the early levels. There are opportunities to pick up chips in the blinds but you need to recognize when that opportunity presents itself and know when to get away from a hand.

Welcome to the forum QTip.

GTR

Scuba Chuck · #10 01-22-2006, 06:41 PM

I like the complete preflop. Lots of good can happen with a hand like this out of the blinds.

On the flop, I like a check to see the action, and button's bet looks blatantly like a positional bet. Furthermore, with this coordinated board, I don't think too many other hands like a set/2 pair, would check this through, so its often likely that the other hands have weak holdings.

You called which is okay. I would think with 12 strong outs, and potentially another 3 outs for your J, you can often just take command of the hand right here on the flop. I would think button has anything from a mid/small pair to, well, nothing/ace high. I think taking command of this hand on the flop is best here.

With this turn, I probably just lead/shove. Of course, checking and seeing what happens is fine, as long as you're folding to a substantial bet when you check. I play the $33s, so I don't know how playing from the blinds is on the $11s.

Welcome to the forum.