Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods

[PlzHelpMe]

05423059345039 your cash game example does not prove that it is different in cash games because that is a completely different situation.

[pete fabrizio]

I don't quite understand why this is the rule for tournaments. I mean, I understand the need to prevent collusion, but why can't it be handled the same way as a player who mucked his cards in a cash game when another player requests to see his hand? That is, grab the cards, symbolically touch the muck with them, declaring the hand dead, then turn them over for everyone to see.

[0524432]

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05423059345039 your cash game example does not prove that it is different in cash games because that is a completely different situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

[MC Chris]

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05423059345039 your cash game example does not prove that it is different in cash games because that is a completely different situation.

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How so?

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well for one in your situation the guy clearly flipped up his cards for all to see. in the tournament situation the guy pushed his cards forward and the dealer turned them up (because that's the right thing to do in that spot).

now.. in your situation, if the guy had pushed his hand face down toward the muck, then the dealer somehow flipped it over for everyone to see, then someone said "wow a straight flush!" then the guy said i call and won... you'd have a legit beef.

[0524432]

So I don't have to type it out again, this is the answer to your question, in a response of mine to Matt Savage in the Tournament Circuit forum...

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Matt, given the video evidence of what happened. I know it was a correct "ruling" given the current guidelines. However, can you honestly tell me you think this is the most REASONABLE action, given the circumstances? If so, please explain how this is the most viable option.



Quite simply it is the rule, TDA Rule #9 states

"All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete."

The dealer did his job by opening his hand. I totally agree this guy was trying to muck his hand and tried to say he was tying to turn it up. If JC would have one this hand it would have been mistake.

Matt



I have the feeling you would rather not answer the question, but just in case you missed it...Do you agree that the rule itself, which has been stated as fact to be enforced to deter collusion, is more valuable than allowing hands to be pulled from the muck that were intentionally folded allowing a player to awkwardly pull back their cards and push their chips forward, as he is obviously reversing a mistake he has made?



So let me get it straight, on a called all-in bet with NO MORE ACTION you think it is OK for the worst hand to win?

Matt



No, the decision should be made before the result of opposing hands are complete. When the player making the decision to muck his cards, nevermind grab a handful of chips and hand them to Tran (in this case), he should be forfeiting his right to win the pot. It's like this.....The rule is in place to prevent collusion. Any reasonable argument will conclude that collusion is still very much possible, even this this rule in place. That being said, these people who eventually realize they've made a mistake by folding, whether it be by another player speaking up, or by realizing the've made the best hand after they've folded, need to be held accountable.

There is nothing more awkward for a poker player than to watch someone foolishly trying to grab back their hand and simultaneously jam his chips into the pot and act like he was calling the whole time, imo.

[PlzHelpMe]

OP you really are rediculous. I don't understand why this is so complicated for you to understand.

[towery]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand why this is the rule for tournaments. I mean, I understand the need to prevent collusion, but why can't it be handled the same way as a player who mucked his cards in a cash game when another player requests to see his hand? That is, grab the cards, symbolically touch the muck with them, declaring the hand dead, then turn them over for everyone to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that wouldn't prevent chipdumping/collusion. I don't think you really get it.

[Rzitup]

[ QUOTE ]
So I don't have to type it out again, this is the answer to your question, in a response of mine to Matt Savage in the Tournament Circuit forum...

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Matt, given the video evidence of what happened. I know it was a correct "ruling" given the current guidelines. However, can you honestly tell me you think this is the most REASONABLE action, given the circumstances? If so, please explain how this is the most viable option.



Quite simply it is the rule, TDA Rule #9 states

"All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete."

The dealer did his job by opening his hand. I totally agree this guy was trying to muck his hand and tried to say he was tying to turn it up. If JC would have one this hand it would have been mistake.

Matt



I have the feeling you would rather not answer the question, but just in case you missed it...Do you agree that the rule itself, which has been stated as fact to be enforced to deter collusion, is more valuable than allowing hands to be pulled from the muck that were intentionally folded allowing a player to awkwardly pull back their cards and push their chips forward, as he is obviously reversing a mistake he has made?



So let me get it straight, on a called all-in bet with NO MORE ACTION you think it is OK for the worst hand to win?

Matt



No, the decision should be made before the result of opposing hands are complete. When the player making the decision to muck his cards, nevermind grab a handful of chips and hand them to Tran (in this case), he should be forfeiting his right to win the pot. It's like this.....The rule is in place to prevent collusion. Any reasonable argument will conclude that collusion is still very much possible, even this this rule in place. That being said, these people who eventually realize they've made a mistake by folding, whether it be by another player speaking up, or by realizing the've made the best hand after they've folded, need to be held accountable.

There is nothing more awkward for a poker player than to watch someone foolishly trying to grab back their hand and simultaneously jam his chips into the pot and act like he was calling the whole time, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule was implemented for two reasons; 1) to prevent collusion/chip dumping and 2) to entertain the players/crowds with entertaining all-in situations.

The rule is that simple. The cards must be turned up. Period. The player cant muck them, the dealer cant muck them, a railbird cant muck them. The dealer did the right thing, the floor made the right ruling.

And quit comparing it to your cash game situation, because the two are completely unrelated.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand why this is the rule for tournaments. I mean, I understand the need to prevent collusion, but why can't it be handled the same way as a player who mucked his cards in a cash game when another player requests to see his hand? That is, grab the cards, symbolically touch the muck with them, declaring the hand dead, then turn them over for everyone to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the scenario.

Colluder 1: "I'm all-in."
Colluder 2: "I call."
Colluder 1: "I have junk. I fold."

The dealer does the killing of Colluder 1's hand and Colluder 2 still gets all the chips. You've failed to prevent the colludres from achieving their chip-dumping goal.

If you also show Colluder 2's hand, he still gets the chips despite possibly showing a junk hand.

If you force them to play out the hand, the two colluders don't know where the chips are going. Presumably, they want control over that.

[PlzHelpMe]

also your playing poker. after all betting WHOEVER HAS THE BEST HAND GETS THE POT. THERE WAS NO MORE BETTING.