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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:20 PM
Collin Moshman Collin Moshman is offline
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Default Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN Theory)

I've been playing a large amount of HU SNGs recently, and the biggest mistake I see strategically is guys with an inoptimally low pre-flop 3-Bet : Call ratio.

When you're playing OOP and the button raises, calling is generally your weakest option. This is because you have no chance to win immediately, and you will always go into a flop with a built-in positional disadvantage. Even if you are the superior player, it is very tough to outplay an opponent who has position every round of betting. So you are often forced to play hit-to-win, which is an undesirably passive approach in HU.

Three-betting gives you a strong chance to win immediately, and when you are called, you are the one who has shown strength pre-flop and will generally be the one who takes the pot (with a standard c-bet) when you both miss.

This mistake (of infrequent 3-betting) is particularly egregious when your opponent is consistently raising his button to 3 BB, as many tight-aggressive guys do. Here, not only do you want the advantages discussed above, but you also want your aggressive opponent to realize you are not afraid to come over top of his raises -- i.e., your 3-bets help the metagame as well.

Don't get me wrong -- Calling is certainly a good play at times. For instance, if your opponent is a maniac who will never fold to your reraises, and you're calling for the implied odds. Or maybe he's min-raising you and the immediate odds are worth seeing a flop. And some hands, like low-mid aces, are too strong to fold, but tend to play poorly in large pots.

All I'm saying is that many players do not 3-bet OOP nearly enough, and any time you are planning to at least call a raise pre-flop, you should give serious consideration to 3-betting instead.
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 09:22 PM
ghettointlectual ghettointlectual is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

Your post is very interesting and thank you for sharing your valuable thoughts. I agree with you about 3-betting often being a better option I don't have much to add except that it should be player dependent. I play in the micro limits and often the players I play do not raise that often on the button so 3 betting should only be done with strong hands(in fact I rarely even call) Every once in a while I will face a player who is aggressive on the button and I open up my 3 bet range
And in that I case I polarize it, 88+ AJ+ Kq+ low sc and low pp I would not 3 bet says Kt or A8 because I think I can get more value buy playing hit or miss and letting my aggressive opponent take the lead or maybe even check-raising sometimes if I don't think my opponent has a hand
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 09:44 PM
ChicagoRy ChicagoRy is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

Generally speaking, in every turbo level I've played players have called my 3-bet super light. To exploit this I've used a tighter/stronger range with 3-bets against most players.

In regular speed games I have noticed that I 3-bet a much larger % overall. I think you can attribute this to a longer structure (more time to get better reads on players, more time to exploit them with deeper stacks) and to the fact (imo) that players in regular speed games tend to be a lot tighter and weaker than turbo players.

Often times in low to mid level games it is very hard for a beginning player to make correct plays in 3-bet pots. They first of all have to get a decent read on their opponent's calling %, decide what hands are best to 3-bet, then figure out his postflop play in big pots. Add to this that they are OOP and this is a built up pot and you can see how a solid edge can disappear quickly.

I like to encourage newer players to work on building pots in position, as I feel that is the most important and easiest way to gain a big edge in these games.

Another thing I'd like to point out, is as a whole I've noticed a lot of players that have had very good results in higher buyin games call very light in 3-bet pots. I've had conversations about this with a few other forum members (and pretty solid players) and they agree. If a lot of good players are calling 3-bets too light, then a lot of worse players will probably be doing it, even to a bigger extent.

I think this factors in on the lack of 3-betting, maybe not as much as the structures (turbo vs regular) but I think it helps to explain why you notice players don't 3-bet very often.

I'll put some more thought into this in the next few days as the thread grows and probably post some more, I'm kind of cut short right now.
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:06 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

Happy birthday Chicago !

Here is an old thread that is somewhat related .

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=7637184

Generally speaking , if your opponent's range is ~ the top 50% of hands , then your re-raising range should be ~ the top 25% of hands . If you believe your hands plays better post-flop than the average hand your opponent would have , then you should consider re-raising . I find the biggest weakness amongst heads up players is that they seldom re-raise . Against a player who raises or folds his button , then you should be more inclined to 3-bet as his range is fairly wide . This means that against a player who raises the majority of his hands on the button , then it's imperative that you re-raise more than 25% of the time .

You may also negate your positional disadvantage by giving him less than 2:1 odds on the call .
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:15 AM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

Mind if I ask for a stat?

What is your BBwon/hand out of the SB and BB?
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:14 AM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

[ QUOTE ]
Three-betting gives you a strong chance to win immediately

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Chicago here, in that I don't believe this statement to be true, generally speaking. Certainly not on Full Tilt. It's a *very* rare opponent that will raise the button and then fold to anything less than an all-in 3bet, so when I do it, it's because my hand is likely to be ahead and I want them to put more money in with hands that are likely to be dominated, not because I think I have a chance to win preflop.

Lots of opponents will play almost any two cards preflop to normal-sized raises (3x-5x), in position or out, no matter what the preflop action is, but will fold the flop to a donk bet if they miss, which means that you can take a shot at the same chips for a lot less risk, and with a much higher chance of success, by flat calling preflop and donking a wide variety of flops.

I pop habitual limpers with a pretty wide range (probably wider than I really should), but I 3bet OOP pretty narrow, unless I see somebody folding to 3bets too often, which I think I've seen exactly *one* opponent do in the past 2-3 weeks, playing $30s, $50s, and $100s. I think my 3 bet range is somewhere around A9+, 55+, sometimes KQ and KJs, but *very* rarely anything weaker than that, unless my opponent is raising the button too often. (which, again, seems pretty rare. Habitual limpers seem to be FAR more common than habitual raisers)
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:34 AM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

You can flat-call and check raise a continuation bet. You will usually take down the flop if you are timing this correctly. You end up taking the pre-flop bet and the continuation bet. I do not think it is as important to take immediate pots in HUSNGs. It is better to take a chance at a flop and take large bites out of your opponent's stack.

Some people prefer to grind their opponents down. I don't know how these players play.

There are many many lines you can take, but this is so incredibly opponent dependent that there is not single way to play OOP in the early stages.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:13 AM
ChicagoRy ChicagoRy is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

I raise limps pretty tight for the most part, because of the same tendencies that players seem to have in 3-bet pots, they call too often.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:59 PM
Collin Moshman Collin Moshman is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

For sure, against very loose players willing to call your 3-bet wide, then you'd only want to 3-bet for value. Not having some chance of winning immediately obviously makes the 3-bet much less desirable.

I really don't like playing raised pots OOP, and I'll agree with Chicago that sticking to a positional game is certainly higher priority. But against the type of opponent who is raising his button a lot, I will absolutely go ahead and 3-bet him the majority of the time I'm not folding.

Do others find that your opponents rarely fold to OOP 3-bets? Now how about just those opponents who are raising their button wide?

daveT, PO does not give me a BB/100 stat in tourney play, but T$Won/Hand during Stars t10-t20 over a relatively small 1500 hand sample size is:

Button: 10.11
BB: -3.17

-- Collin
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:12 PM
xSCWx xSCWx is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

[ QUOTE ]
For sure, against very loose players willing to call your 3-bet wide, then you'd only want to 3-bet for value. Not having some chance of winning immediately obviously makes the 3-bet much less desirable.

I really don't like playing raised pots OOP, and I'll agree with Chicago that sticking to a positional game is certainly higher priority. But against the type of opponent who is raising his button a lot, I will absolutely go ahead and 3-bet him the majority of the time I'm not folding.

Do others find that your opponents rarely fold to OOP 3-bets? Now how about just those opponents who are raising their button wide?

daveT, PO does not give me a BB/100 stat in tourney play, but T$Won/Hand during Stars t10-t20 over a relatively small 1500 hand sample size is:

Button: 10.11
BB: -3.17

-- Collin

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem with this is that most players who are raising a wide range will also call you with a wide range, and the ones who are tight are going to have strong hands that you REALLY don't want to play against in a huge pot OOP.

Which type of villains is this ideal to use against? "Average" ones?
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