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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:16 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Maybe a little LC, I don't know, but this play pissed me off and it feels like the guys I am in the hand with are cooperating. What is happening here?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (9.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (13.50 BB - $81)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $81 | Rake $3

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

Seat 7: [Qh 7d 4s 4h 2h 6d 3c] - HI: a pair of Fours; LO: 7,6,4,3,2

</font>
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:50 PM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion. Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:34 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:54 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you need to look up the definition of "collusion", because that is it.

Thing is, especially in split-pot games, the best non-cooperative strategies are going to be equivivalent to the collusive strategies.

So raising here is fine, *if* it's done simply trying to max individual expectation without any agreement. If on the other hand they signaled, or had some sort of agreement about how to play these hands, that would be cheating.

[ QUOTE ]
Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed.
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:07 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board?

[/ QUOTE ]The point is that he's mostly in pretty good shape if you fold, but in terrible shape no matter what if you stick around.

It's a little doubtful that he has enough to isolate, but it's far better than calling in pretty much any scenario.

And no, you can't really tell that he's doing this sort of play since he would play two pair or trips the same way. In which case you're completely destroyed.

Thinking about it, with your dead outs and the huge downside of him having a better high hand folding seems best. Possibly you're better off 3-betting, but the pot seems to small to warrant getting free-rolled for 2-3 streets.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:10 PM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

When I use the term "cooperative betting," I mean making a play because your play allows another player in position to make a play that will increase your expectation. Getting a draw in the middle for multiple raises is one example, but betting so the next player can raise and face the field with two bets is another.

In stud, I often bet into a probable better hand if the better hand is likely to raise and force draws behind him to fold. I'm not betting because my hand is best, but because my opponent and I both figure to do better if the pot is heads-up.

In the hand above, the c/r villain has a pair and a low draw, and his 4s block straights for the other villain, with whom he would like to contest the whole pot. When V1 bets, it might very well be with the expectation V2 will raise, and since Hero has no scoop potential, he is forced to fold a better high hand, conceding half the pot to one of the villains, who now get to fight over the whole pot instead of just the low half. This looks pretty normal to me.

If this were actual collusion, I would expect one of them to just fold the pot to the other once it was heads-up. In a live game this is less likely because it arouses suspicion and villains can just combine their bankrolls in the car on the way home. Online, it's not that easy.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:10 PM
SCSTWG SCSTWG is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

During the course of this hand when he makes the check raise on 5th street, you may have to consider that he has trip 4's and was waiting until it was a full bet to get max value. I actually like his raise in this spot because you showed weakness on 5th with your check and he is figuring if you checked you are not calling 2 bets. He then has a decent low draw and is probably in front for high. I don't see any collusion in this at all.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:06 PM
Phat Mack Phat Mack is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?


[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. But if he has you on three low cards and two bricks, this is his chance to promote his 44 before you have a chance to pair you ace or brick.

As electrical says, all hi-lo games have this tactical element of ad-hoc implied collusion to build pots and/or to promote hands. These partnerships change from hand to hand. Nothing is more annoying than to be in a hi-lo pot when your implied partner doesn't understand his role. (Studying these partnerships and failed partnerships is highly profitable. Learn to see them coming.)

He made a good play.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:56 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

Why do you guys think I don't understand the point of cooperative betting? I'm just saying I have a hard time finding this play more profitable for him than a fold. I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:33 PM
PokrLikeItsProse PokrLikeItsProse is offline
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Default Re: Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

I have a hard time understanding why you seem so incredulous about players making what appear to you to be aggressive, non-good plays. If you've never been raised off the best hand before, then you're probably a calling station.
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