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  #1  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:21 PM
52_4 52_4 is offline
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Default NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Villain is pretty good for this level. He started out limping from the SB, but being very aggressive post-flop. He actually adjusted when he noticed I started trapping him by raising more from the SB. I've been raising a lot from the button, with Villain folding most of his hands. Whenever he called, I cbet and he folded most of the time. He pushed me of some hands though. He min-3-bet me once, but folded to my 4-bet (i had QQ).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t1585)
BB (t1415)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t300) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t200</font>, Hero ???.

I felt really lost here. I think he knows I'm going to cbet regardless of my hand, so this would be a pretty weird line with an A. I'm not sure if Villain is good enough to second-level think here. I'm pretty sure Villain second barrels here with his entire range when called.
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:30 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

This is a good opportunity to mini-raise otf . Since it's consistent with how I may have played top pair with this flop texture .

You only have to be successful 4/9 or 44.44% of the time to show a profit by mini-raising .
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  #3  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:34 PM
hra146 hra146 is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

I call and see what he does on the turn. Remember we have position.

I think minraising is terrible but Ill let others elaborate.
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  #4  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:45 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

There's nothing wrong with occasionally mini-raising .

If you've never used a flop mini-raise , then you might need to re-think your heads up strategy . I think making plays like this is an essential part in a heads up player .

There is a reason why players make threads on how difficult it is to read a mini-raise . Your goal in poker is to make your opponent's life as difficult as possible and one way of doing this is to make unusual size bets .
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  #5  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:53 PM
Unknown Soldier Unknown Soldier is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

i cant see what a minraise accomplishes (that's good for us)
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:04 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Mini-raising does have some advantages in that you lose the minimum when you're behind and you're building the pot when you're more likely ahead .
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:04 PM
hra146 hra146 is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

I didnt mean minraising is bad in general, although I must say that I use it VERY rarely, my comment was related to this hand only.
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  #8  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:05 PM
Somekid Somekid is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

What I don't understand about minraising is that it doesn't fold out anything we beat. We also seem a little too weak to be raising the flop for value here. It might fold out second pair, which we probably wanted to let bluff again on the turn.

My thought was that if we minraise, second pair will probably call (and so will an ace of course). Now we're in a tough spot on the turn since we don't know whether or not we should bet, since our opponent could still have an ace or second pair. If we check behind, an ace is probably going to lead the river and second pair is probably going to see a showdown, unless we risk a lot of chips.

The only away to avoid this awkward river is with a turn bet, but with the pot as big as it is, it will need to be a big turn bet, which could cost us a lot of chips against the ace.

Now there is a chance (maybe it's even very high), that our opponent is donking the flop w/ air, but we probably don't want to raise the flop in that case, as they might give us a few more chips if we just call.

EDIT: This is just why I wouldn't suggest minraising. But, I'm curious to hear more about why minraising here is good.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:11 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Calling may likely be better but as I said , you only have to be successful 44.44% of the time to show a profit . So although I think mini-raising is positive EV , it's probably more positive EV to call and let him second barrel on the turn and go from there .
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:28 PM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
you only have to be successful 44.44% of the time to show a profit

[/ QUOTE ]
Successful at what? Folding out an ace?

I would guess you're going to get any ace to fold exactly 0% of the time by minraising. And that includes A2. Maybe *some* opponents are going to fold an ace *sometimes* to a minraise (or any raise, for that matter, most people seem more than happy to get it in here with A2 or A3), but nowhere near 44%.

If "success" is just having the best hand, then as other people have pointed out (and you seem to have agreed), minraising is the wrong move here. Raising does get a little more value from some hands we're beating, but loses value against a whole lot more (because they'll just fold rather than bet again on the turn), and practically never folds out a hand that's beating us.
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