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  #21  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:25 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Default Re: management argue

Isn't this really a two part question?

1.) what is the minimum the player can raise?

The answer here is clearly 600.

2.) What is the players minimum bet, chould he chose to raise?

IMO, I don't see how the answer could be anything other than 1500. If he just wants to call how much does he need to put out? 900 right? So adding the minimum raise of 600 to that = 1500.

So a minimum bet is 1500 but the raise amount is only 600.

Feel free to correct.

ps. If we look at it from a side pot point of veiw and assume three players. Ignore blinds. Main pot should be 2700. All in of 900 plus the two callers. With two raises of 600 for two players side pot should be 1200. If we allow second player to only bet 1400 and initial raiser to call this well have 1400 + 1400 + 900. Side pot ends up only being 1000.

Or am I wrong here too?
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:53 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
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Default Re: management argue

[ QUOTE ]
amount of the last raise is 600, 800 is the total 600+800=1400. If you say the amount of the bet must be doubled then it would be 1600, but 1500 is clearly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

As the other posters have mentioned under "current rules" 1500 is NOT "clearly wrong". OTOH, I'm not sure it's clearly right either. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But I do think this problem illustrates that the "double the bet" rule used at Hawaiian Gardens might be the best rule for modern no limit.

~ Rick
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  #23  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:58 PM
todd1007 todd1007 is offline
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Default Re: management argue

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the action to the player in question is 900 to go
... a raise of 700.

the correct min raise would be to 1600 (700 + 700 + 200)

the initial raiser's action is void because the raise of the all in player is greater.

[/ QUOTE ]

The all in player didn't raise. He went all in for less then a full raise, so his action is treated as a call. This closes the action if no one else raises behind him and players who have already acted can only call the all in or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


NO NO NO NO

the question is not what action did the all in player take? (in limit this would be considered a call and the only action the the next proceeding player could take would be to complete the bet, but this is NL, completely different),

the question is... what is the action to the player in question (the player who wants to min raise)?

THE ACTION TO THIS PLAYER IS....

a raise of 700 to 900. so,

900 to call

700 to raise

yes i know that much of the software online would consider the minraises to be 1400
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  #24  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
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Default Re: management argue

[ QUOTE ]
Bob Ciaffone actually wrote an article about this, as well as the aggregate total of sevreal all ins that eventually go over the full bet threshhold(which he felt reopened the betting). Wow was that a bunch of unclear crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't that article primarily address limit issues? For example $80 betting round Player A bets 80, B calls, C allin for 100, D allin for 130, A calls, action now reopened for B since the total of both allin raises is greater than half the original bet (which means a full bet in limit).

Of course the same concept could be applied to no limit when two allins amount to a full raise.

~ Rick
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:17 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
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Default Re: management argue

As Randy and others have mentioned the answer seems to be in dispute (and I've heard it both ways over the years).

Here's the applicable written rule from an LA rulebook (Ciaffone's is similar).

"3 All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the amount of the last bet or raise. For example: Player A bets $100. Player B raises $100 more, making the total bet $200. If Player C goes all in for less than $300 total (not a full $100 raise), and Player A calls, then Player B has no option to raise again, because he wasn’t fully raised. However, Player A can raise — after Player C goes all in — because he was fully raised by Player B. If Player A does raise, then the betting is reopened, and Player B can raise again."

IMO the written rule is unclear. But if rewritten I'd prefer the raise to be to $1500 unless you want to go to the "double the bet you are facing" approach in which case it would be to $1600.

~ Rick

Edit to say this thread would be better (easier to find) with a more descriptive title (e.g., "Min reraise after short allin raise").
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  #26  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:10 PM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: management argue

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bob Ciaffone actually wrote an article about this, as well as the aggregate total of sevreal all ins that eventually go over the full bet threshhold(which he felt reopened the betting). Wow was that a bunch of unclear crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't that article primarily address limit issues? For example $80 betting round Player A bets 80, B calls, C allin for 100, D allin for 130, A calls, action now reopened for B since the total of both allin raises is greater than half the original bet (which means a full bet in limit).

Of course the same concept could be applied to no limit when two allins amount to a full raise.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I know because of confusion he does mention in his rules now that a series of all-ins too small to reopen betting will still reopen betting if collectively they add up to a raise. Example: A bets 100, B all-in for 150, C all-in for 200, and D calls 200. The action is open to A even tough nobody made a $100 raise.
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:31 PM
TMTTR TMTTR is offline
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Default Re: management argue

[ QUOTE ]
the correct min raise would be to 1600 (700 + 700 + 200)


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Bold and screaming -- and you are really bad at this. When was there ever a 700 raise to set that as the amount of the min-raise?
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  #28  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:15 PM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Re: management argue

In the Hawaiian Gardens double the bet rule, which bet are you doubling? The bey, the raise, or the total calling amount?
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:38 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default you are right, it\'s a ridiculous arguement

The answer is so clearly 1400 it's not even funny. 1500? Kick 'em in the nuts. Then let him know that it's ok to sometimes not smoke that stuff on his break.

Al
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:37 PM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Re: you are right, it\'s a ridiculous arguement

How much does it cost the player to call? 900
What is the minimum raise? 600 +
________________________________________________
1,500


class dismissed
LOL
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