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  #11  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:50 PM
phatjeffrey phatjeffrey is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
I felt really lost here. I think he knows I'm going to cbet regardless of my hand, so this would be a pretty weird line with an A. I'm not sure if Villain is good enough to second-level think here. I'm pretty sure Villain second barrels here with his entire range when called.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Op is pretty sure that he's up against a turn bet.

Folding is an option we save 200, its a weak play though with KK.

If we call, PS is 700 on the turn. i dont see villain betting less than 400.


Id raise to 450. Which accomplishes :

1)Opponent might shove, we fold. we lose 450.

2)Opponent might call, check turn, we could check behind on the turn, if opponent shoves river we fold, if he checks we value bet against a T. if we assume its equally distributed.
We lose 450 1/2 of the time. win 1200 + Value Bet.

3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP < T's) a T or air. we win 500.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:55 PM
hra146 hra146 is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

I really think this is the worst spot in the world for raising any amount of chips given the info we have.
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:57 PM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP < T's) a T or air.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead.

Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 2-5 outs *if that*, seems really bad.

Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either.

*edit*:fixed out counts for hands that are behind. A lot of hands that are behind need running cards.
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  #14  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:59 PM
hra146 hra146 is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP < T's) a T or air.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead.

Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 3-5 outs, seems really bad.

Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not off-base at all. Ill Q this FT.
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:02 PM
phatjeffrey phatjeffrey is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again and we cant fold, i might call flop, and raise all in on a non J or 9 turn.(Since i think a donkbet by villain here is a T alot more than an A) and the most probable holdings are JT or T9.
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:10 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Tnixon , I never said that a mini-raise will get him to fold an ace , you did .

There are other hands in his range other than an ace . If he has a middle pair , you don't mind if he calls and if you're re-raised you know where you stand .

I don't think a flop raise is a bad idea if you expect him to call you with worse hands . He's making a mistake if he calls with middle pair which is a good thing for you .
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:10 PM
hra146 hra146 is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

I kinda didnt read TNixons last sentence regarding the not folding to a turnbet.

While Im gonna call some bets vs. some opponents, I do not quite see why we cant fold. What do solid opponents two-barrel desert-dry A-hi boards with?

Unless I have a read on his betsizes I can comfortably fold to a 2/3 psb here. Noone at the 11s is ever valuebetting a T here and I dont quite see JJ or QQ in his range doing that either. So what do you put him on when you call the turn? A bluff. I dont like putting solid opponents on bluffs given that line + board structure.
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:13 PM
jay_shark jay_shark is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

Hra , I like the calling idea but it's NOT to fold on the turn . You may call a turn bet and possibly fold to a river bet .
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:16 PM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and we call many bets on the turn because we're ahead of his range, and because that's the best way to get value out of pretty much every hand that doesn't have an ace in it.

If we raise the flop, we narrow his range mostly to hands that are beating us, and we've given free money to any ace that has us drawing ultra-thin. In addition, the ace can get even more chips out of us by calling our raise and checking the turn, which is exactly what many of the weaker aces are going to do.

Also, depending on the opponent, not every ace is going to bet again if we just call. Most opponents are going to bet the turn with even weak aces, especially if they donk out on the flop, but some opponents are going to check/call the turn and river, or maybe bet the river if we check behind on the turn.

Add that possibility to the times that they're betting the turn with a worse hand, and raising just looks worse and worse.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:23 PM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ QUOTE ]
I never said that a mini-raise will get him to fold an ace , you did .

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet again you fail miserably at reading comprehension, because I specifically said that a mini-raise is *never* going to get an ace to fold, and asked for your definition of "success".

If your definition included getting an ace to fold, then it was clearly off-base. (but if it didn't include getting an ace to fold, then it was very strangely phrased)

If "success" just meant getting value out of worse hands, then there are better options, which you do seem to realize.

So if we're saying the same thing, why do you insist on being a jackass about it?
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