(razz) too aggressive with 65 against strong board?

[RustyBrooks]

99% of the time I raise preflop but I really like my hand here, there are no missing outs and 3 of my pair cards are gone. I was half expecting a raise downstream because the table has been active and gambly if a few people call a completion. Anyway, mea culpa although I don't think it would change this hand that much except maybe I'd think I was beat sooner.

I've given no indication that my hand is nearly as strong as it is, maybe that was a mistake as well.

On 6th his hand does not have to be that strong to bet when I check to him so I didn't necessarily assume I was beat even when he called.

I have no reads or experience with villain but he seems tight and aggressive.


Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (5.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (4.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (6.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

[AggressiveCall]

Personally, with my experience at the .25/.5 tables (rather limited, I'll admit), villain's range is wheel to 9-5. Granted, with your read, probably not 9-5. I think this was a fine play, I think you'll find Seat 8 with 8 or 7 a lot of times in this hand. Besides, he didn't re-raise you, so going into 7th I would think you can be fairly confident.

[blumpkin]

nh

alternatively, you could bet 6th and c/r the river

[chucky]

Check raise on 6th looks fine. Villian probably has 74 or 76 under. If villian had 64 under i would expect a 3 bet here. My question is what is your river plan? Villian will probably check behind with 76, so bet/call?

[RustyBrooks]

I don't know what's right, really. On the plus side, my hand is quite near the best hand you could expect me to have. This is good because villain is going to call with most of the hands he'd call with if he thought I might have a 65 but might just have an 86 or 76. In this case I'd rather have an obviousish 65 (as opposed to have a board like A235 and having a 65)

But what should I do if he raises the river? I really don't know this guy, this might be the first hand I've played against him. I have about 100 observed hands and he's been playing quite tight, around 20% vpip so I have to assume he's not totally retarded. Personally I'd want a 65 or better to raise on the end here and I have the worst 65.

I figure the answer is "yes" but I'll ask - is a hand like 65 completely unfoldable? What about 75 or 74? I have never yet folded one of these hands but I have often felt that I should have. I'm starting to understand what sucks so bad about starters like 875. I do not want to end up with an 87 in a multiway pot. It's kind of like a low 2 pair in holdem or something.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what's right, really. ....

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing. Nothing's "right."

You like math, what's the probability of making a wheel or a 64? Yer gonna fold the river for a bet?

No "right" plays - just some wrong ones.

[Andy B]

Raise third. You have a fantastic hand, and they'll call. Get your money in there. I would have just bet out on sixth, but I guess your way is fine too.

[Rush17]

I agree with Andy. And, you need to bet 6th street ESPECIALLY that you didn't know your opponent, because, if he's the slightest bit passive, and/or, if he paired up somewhere...then you are not going to get a bet in as you had anticipated. Also, when your board has 4 unpaired low cards...the checkraise attempt is going to fail too many times because unless your opponent just caught his gin card, then again, no chips are going into the pot. AND, if he fails to catch anything decent on the river, then you're not going to get paid off there, which I why I prefer to just bet right out on 6th street, and save the fancy plays for when your hand is more concealed, or, if your opponent was known to be overly aggressive.

Oh, and if you bet the river and he raises you? I would just pay it off. I wouldn't reraise only because his cards were live to have a better 6 than you, and, you did say that he was tight, and, I would also be *more* inclined to give him credit for a good hand because of the strength of your open board, not to mention, that, if he can raise you on the river after your c'rai on 6th street(which is obviously a play that is usually saved for the big hands), then I'm just gonna call.

[*TT*]

this hand reeks of FPS. raise 3rd, razz doesn't play as well multiway even if you have a monster, your hand equity is not that much greater than seat 8's (I admit I'll take a 60% fav any day!), and once its multiway everything turns sideways if you catch bad on the following street -
example.

Rembember your not closing the action, and the pot will be too small to correctly peel on 4th street if you catch bad vs 2 opponents who will peel.

Raise 4th, only good things can come from it.

Oddly I like your play on 7th vs some opponents, but without a read the best play is to bet-3bet the river.

[RustyBrooks]

Even sklansky recommends slowplaying occaisonally on 3rd with a hand like this. My 3rd stats are something like 22/14 so it's not like I don't raise almost every time I come in. But I do agree that raising is the right thing to do with this hand almost every time.

Possibly I should raise 4th but I fear all that does is get me heads up against a guy who's got me dominated with no suckers to help me pay for being 2nd place.

5th I think is a clear bet especially if there's any chance he's paired - I don't think he's going to draw to 9 high.

6th I'm still so unsure of. I definitely intended to checkraise but that means I must have been sure he would bet which means I know he's not paired and he's probably got a good hand. I don't want this street to check through because I'm certain he has a hand that's worth calling 6th. I was almost 100% sure he would bet and I was surprised he didn't 3bet. Yet I liked my hand.