Terrorism and Barbarity

[HeavilyArmed]

I heard my first decent Thomas Friedman (NYT columnist/blowhard) quote a while back and if I remember correctly it went something like this: "Is Iraq the way it is because of Saddam or is Saddam the way he is (was) because of Iraq?'

I now believe the correct answer is the latter. I have seen every effort to move towards an Iraqi democracy founder. Democracy in Iraq is not going to occur, IMO, and this is GWB's biggest miscalculation. I take Freidman to mean that given the nature of Iraqi cultures, only the ministrations of a near psychopathic dictator could maintain any sort of order.

The fact that so many are willing to take up the cause in suicide bombings takes away from me any psychic connection to these insurgents. They are not only not like me, they are incomprehensable to me. There is no situation where I can imagine doing what they do. It's true that much better American men than I have volunteered, in times of war and crisis, for missions that were near certain death. The difference is that they had an out, however small.

Suicide bombing of civilians, by itself, allows me to label it an act of barbarity. Add to it the relish and celebration surrounding beheading, the merciless torture, disfigurement of the dead, and it's more than enough for me to question the culture that spawns such acts so foreign to a western sensibility.

barbarity

noun

A cruel act or an instance of cruel behavior: bestiality, brutality, cruelty, inhumanity, savagery, truculence, truculency. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, kind/cruel.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen every effort

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what efforts?

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard my first decent Thomas Friedman (NYT columnist/blowhard) quote a while back and if I remember correctly it went something like this: "Is Iraq the way it is because of Saddam or is Saddam the way he is (was) because of Iraq?'

I now believe the correct answer is the latter. I have seen every effort to move towards an Iraqi democracy founder. Democracy in Iraq is not going to occur, IMO, and this is GWB's biggest miscalculation. I take Freidman to mean that given the nature of Iraqi cultures, only the ministrations of a near psychopathic dictator could maintain any sort of order.

The fact that so many are willing to take up the cause in suicide bombings takes away from me any psychic connection to these insurgents. They are not only not like me, they are incomprehensable to me. There is no situation where I can imagine doing what they do. It's true that much better American men than I have volunteered, in times of war and crisis, for missions that were near certain death. The difference is that they had an out, however small.

Suicide bombing of civilians, by itself, allows me to label it an act of barbarity. Add to it the relish and celebration surrounding beheading, the merciless torture, disfigurement of the dead, and it's more than enough for me to question the culture that spawns such acts so foreign to a western sensibility.

barbarity

noun

A cruel act or an instance of cruel behavior: bestiality, brutality, cruelty, inhumanity, savagery, truculence, truculency. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, kind/cruel.

[/ QUOTE ]

All one need do is observe the manner in which so many Iraqis are being murdered by the sectarian death squads: the victims aren't just killed, they are routinely tortured then killed. Routinely. The bodies are found, bound and mutilated by power tools, by drills and such.

In the modern West, when there is warlike violence, it is mainly just killing. The Iraqis are making it a point to torture many, many people to death. That alone should say something about nuttiness and barbarism. There is something really wrong with these people (not all of them of course, but apparently a lot of them). Saddam, it seems, had no problem finding a plentiful supply of loyal torturers to work for his security forces.

Maybe the three decades of Saddam's reign brutalized the collective psyche of the Iraqis; that wouldn't be surprising
and might explain some of the sadism occurring now. But for whatever reason, what there is now is a whole lotta evil and sadism going on. They don't just want to kill and win for their side; they want to inflict maximum anguish also. That is always a sign of pathology.

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
"Barbarian" is a pejorative term for an uncivilized, uncultured person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos perceived as having an inferior level of civilization, or in an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, insensitive person whose behaviour is unacceptable in the purportedly civilized society of the speaker. wikipedia

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two cultures are like two different trains crossing each other: each one believes it has chosen the good direction. A broader analysis reveals that neither party 'chooses' their direction, but that their 'brutish' behaviors have formed out of neccessity, being entirely dependant on and hooked to their surrounding geography and circumstances of birth.
a famous quote from anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
Suicide bombing of civilians, by itself, allows me to label it an act of barbarity. Add to it the relish and celebration surrounding beheading, the merciless torture, disfigurement of the dead, and it's more than enough for me to question the culture that spawns such acts so foreign to a western sensibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only foreign to a "western sensibility" because you get a sanitized version of your own barbarity. Stop for a second and think how fing sick it is that American attacked a sovereign country who presented no threat, ripping apart the bodies of thousands of woman and children with their "precise" bombs, then parading it on national television as "shock and awe" - with the bloody pictures removed.

These people live in a different world where life is cheaper and religion is more important. I guarantee you that if the police, national guards, and government bodies of America were disbanded by an invader, and power and gasoline shut off, you would see some very ugly scenes on the streets of "civilized" America.

In short, I suggest you open your eyes a bit. You need to do some reflecting before calling anyone barbaric.

[JOHNY CA$H]

Hey man, you guys invaded them. I'm sure they view you as incomprehensibly barbaric, too.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suicide bombing of civilians, by itself, allows me to label it an act of barbarity. Add to it the relish and celebration surrounding beheading, the merciless torture, disfigurement of the dead, and it's more than enough for me to question the culture that spawns such acts so foreign to a western sensibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only foreign to a "western sensibility" because you get a sanitized version of your own barbarity. Stop for a second and think how fing sick it is that American attacked a sovereign country who presented no threat, ripping apart the bodies of thousands of woman and children with their "precise" bombs, then parading it on national television as "shock and awe" - with the bloody pictures removed.

These people live in a different world where life is cheaper and religion is more important. I guarantee you that if the police, national guards, and government bodies of America were disbanded by an invader, and power and gasoline shut off, you would see some very ugly scenes on the streets of "civilized" America.

In short, I suggest you open your eyes a bit. You need to do some reflecting before calling anyone barbaric.

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Besides the "sovereign country" reference, you make some good points IMO. Don't really want to cover the "sovereign contry" sentiment you express as we've been over that a zillion times over the years and it's not really germane to the points you make anyway IMO.

One can state at this point in time that the targeting of innocent civilians in WWII by both the Allies and the Axis powers was "barbaric." Did it demononstrate cultural inferiority? I would think so. Is such a statement about cultural inferiority a statement about racial inferiority? I would not think so.

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
These people live in a different world where life is cheaper and religion is more important. I guarantee you that if the police, national guards, and government bodies of America were disbanded by an invader, and power and gasoline shut off, you would see some very ugly scenes on the streets of "civilized" America.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ugly scenes you refer to have occured in recent memory. LA had serious rioting and looting twice, in 1965 and 1992 and the trigger was trivial. Our own homebrew of ethnic cleansing was perpetrated in small measure, just ask Reginald Denny.

But I think that it would be a night and day difference in your scenario in the reaction you'd get from urban populations and rural. No death squads would be roaming any of America's red counties (republian voters). Life would be awful in the blue.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard my first decent Thomas Friedman (NYT columnist/blowhard) quote a while back and if I remember correctly it went something like this: "Is Iraq the way it is because of Saddam or is Saddam the way he is (was) because of Iraq?'

I now believe the correct answer is the latter. I have seen every effort to move towards an Iraqi democracy founder. Democracy in Iraq is not going to occur, IMO, and this is GWB's biggest miscalculation. I take Freidman to mean that given the nature of Iraqi cultures, only the ministrations of a near psychopathic dictator could maintain any sort of order.

The fact that so many are willing to take up the cause in suicide bombings takes away from me any psychic connection to these insurgents. They are not only not like me, they are incomprehensable to me. There is no situation where I can imagine doing what they do. It's true that much better American men than I have volunteered, in times of war and crisis, for missions that were near certain death. The difference is that they had an out, however small.

Suicide bombing of civilians, by itself, allows me to label it an act of barbarity. Add to it the relish and celebration surrounding beheading, the merciless torture, disfigurement of the dead, and it's more than enough for me to question the culture that spawns such acts so foreign to a western sensibility.

barbarity

noun

A cruel act or an instance of cruel behavior: bestiality, brutality, cruelty, inhumanity, savagery, truculence, truculency. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, kind/cruel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another of Friedman's purile analysis IMO. Almost all his "analysis" is geared towards a preconceived notion of what should happen in the middle east rather than the nature of the problem at hand.

With this particular experiment of GWB it is impossible to say whether Iraq is capable of democracy. The only way that a country will ever live in freedom (as we in the US define it) is if the people there fight for the freedom from the oppressors.

Interestingly -- if there is a "victory" by the rebels, and the invaders are booted out ignominously, that may be the best chance for Iraq to be a free country. GWB may yet make Iraq a free country, but it will only happen after we leave the country with our tails firmly tucked away.

But, I am not holding my breath for that chance, either.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
One can state at this point in time that the targeting of innocent civilians in WWII by both the Allies and the Axis powers was "barbaric."

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I don't know that I agree with that. WWII was a bloody war that threatened the very survival of civilizations, and I think anything done to hasten it against the aggressors or destroy their will to fight was reasonable. I think the attacked gain a lot of moral rights that the aggressors don't have - especially aggressors with goals such as the Nazis and Japanese.

HeavilyArmed - I'm surprised that I agree with you. The red states seem to have that pioneering spirit in their blood.