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#21
10-11-2006, 08:10 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I get the opinion I'm dealing with a bunch of horribly misinformed 19-year olds. You win. God is an atheist, or something. AS out... [/ QUOTE ] That's a little snooty. And I don't think they're all 19 or horribly misinformed. (I wish I was only 19! Hell, I wish I was only 30) [/ QUOTE ] Yea, you're right. It's just frustrating. For me, Christ is the meaning of life. One gets the impression that for some posters on here, debating religion is trivial and something to be taken lightly, to be approached with the most brisk and vulgar of brevities (TOOTH FAIRY!) as if one's brief experiences and slight literary career was enough to convince them of whatever the truth about God is to which they subscribe. Whereas for any other topic, one would yield to an expert or someone who knew what they were talking about. (Or as far as DS is concerned, we should yield in EVERYTHING to the person who gets the highest score on some intelligence test, regardless of how ignorant they are about the topic at question). One would think that someone with some experience of God (whether real or imaginary) would know more about the God of their experience than someone who claims that God doesn't exist. But it seems that instead of accepting this, those who believe God doesn't exist think that they are therefore entitled to make pronouncements about things concerning God. One would think that agnostics, who by definition don't know, are ignorant (Don't get mad at me- that's what the word means- A GNOSIS) would keep quiet and listen to those who claimed to know something. Maybe it will turn out that they don't know anything. That's what happened with Socrates. Maybe it will turn out that they do. Either way, those who call themslves agnostics should defer to the gnostics- those who know (or claim to know). If they are not willing to do this, then they should not ask questions about religion to theists. 
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#23
10-11-2006, 08:17 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
"the same god" is a stretch...if two people are christians..one believes that the bible and god condemns homosexuality and the other believes that the bible and god does not condemn homosexuality...do they believe in the same god? [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this. If you can say this, how could you say that the gods of different religions are the same? It is not a matter of WHO God is-- God is always the same, of course-- but WHO is in our heart when we pray. The point is not to have some idol-- some man made thing, or concept, some imaginary God-- in our hearts when we pray. If we think God is something that He is not, we are praying to an idol. It is nearly impossible not to fall into error this way, which is why the Church teaches that one needs guidance by their church and its teachings. One also needs incredible discernment. There have been accounts of angels appearing to saints while praying, and they say, Go away, you're looking for someone else. The angel turns out to be a demon. If the saint was not a saint and instead someone who worshipped an idol, he would have followed the "angel." This is probably what happened to Mohammed. Are you sure you want to open this can of worms?
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#24
10-11-2006, 08:28 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
please explain to me why you should be able to comment on Islam, but an athiest cannot comment on this subject. [/ QUOTE ] Because I worship God. Mohommedans also claim to worship the same God. As a worshipper of the God whom they claim to worship, I have something to say about that. I do not know what is in the hearts of individual Mohommedans, but I do know their doctrines and I have read some of their sacred texts. An atheist claims that there is no God, and so does not worship God. He has no experience of his own religious tradition to relate to the Mohammedan one. I say "Mohammedan" and not "Muslim" for a reason. "Muslim" means "one who worships the true God." Since I believe this is a false appellation, incorrectly describing their religion, I use "Mohammedan"-- follower of Mohammed. I am not alone in this. This is the same that was done for all other heresies. The followers of the heresy of Arius were called "Arians." The followers of the heresy of Nestorius are called "Nestorians." Do you also see that because I am a Christian this is more important to me? I do not want to be arbitrarily lumped into a group with Mohammedans by atheists or agnostics who know nothing of these things and think there is nothing at stake. For example, one might be inclined to respond-- how can you say all that about Islam? Just because it's not the same as your religion it has to be wrong? Well, yea. What do you think religion is, a favorite color?
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#25
10-11-2006, 08:37 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "the same god" is a stretch...if two people are christians..one believes that the bible and god condemns homosexuality and the other believes that the bible and god does not condemn homosexuality...do they believe in the same god? [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this. If you can say this, how could you say that the gods of different religions are the same? It is not a matter of WHO God is-- God is always the same, of course-- but WHO is in our heart when we pray. The point is not to have some idol-- some man made thing, or concept, some imaginary God-- in our hearts when we pray. If we think God is something that He is not, we are praying to an idol. It is nearly impossible not to fall into error this way, which is why the Church teaches that one needs guidance by their church and its teachings. One also needs incredible discernment. There have been accounts of angels appearing to saints while praying, and they say, Go away, you're looking for someone else. The angel turns out to be a demon. If the saint was not a saint and instead someone who worshipped an idol, he would have followed the "angel." This is probably what happened to Mohammed. Are you sure you want to open this can of worms? [/ QUOTE ] I didn't say that they were the same god in the sense that you are thinking about it..I said they were the same god in the sense that... assuming that there is only 1 god (as all three believe), they are praying to that god..saying.. god, answer my prayers, etc... each group, however, believes that this god is essentially a different god that what the others believe...one believes that Jesus was His son, one believes that He insprired muhammed and the Qur'an..and one believes that neither of these are true of god... these are in no way bigger or smaller differences than a monthiestic religion which does not have the story of the OT at it's core..at least in terms of whether or not it is the "same god"... if two people have the same view of god except for one minor detail about what this god deems as right and wrong perhaps, then you might say that they worship the same god..we say that christians worship the same god even thought all christians do not agree on everything.. or you could say that technically, they are not praying to the same god...just as you would say that a christian and an egyptian worshiping Aton aren't worshipping the same god... but either one or the other exists (or none, but basically they can't both exist)...just as the christian god cannot consider homosexuality a sin and not consider it a sin..since only one of them is real and both of these gods (as gods of the entire universe) could certianly hear the prayers of the member of the wrong religion
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#26
10-11-2006, 08:46 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
(Or as far as DS is concerned, we should yield in EVERYTHING to the person who gets the highest score on some intelligence test, regardless of how ignorant they are about the topic at question). [/ QUOTE ] I think you need to reread what DS actually wrote if this is what you believe he was implying. Or at least this is not the impression I got from it.
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#27
10-11-2006, 08:52 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
IMO, it's not that there are different Gods. It's that different people project the idea of individuality onto God.
The concept of a Being without individuality is difficult at best to convey, but the idea is that of realizing personality without that selfhood which differentiates one individual from another. "I am not that other because I am myself" - this is the definition of individual selfhood; but it necessarily imparts the idea of limitation, because the recognition of any other individuality at once affirms a point at which our own individuality ceases and the other begins. But, per your post, this mode of recognition cannot be attributed to God. For God to recognize a point where (he) ceases and something else begins would be to recognize (himself) as not universal; for the meaning of universality is the including of all things, and therefore for this Being to recognize anything as outside of itself would be a denial of its own being. So we can say that whatever may be God's true nature, it must be entirely devoid of the element of self-recognition as an individual personality. God's absolute impersonalness, in the sense of the entire absence of any consciousness of individual selfhood, and man's inability to grasp that, is a point on which all religions ultimately divide.
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#28
10-11-2006, 08:53 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say that they were the same god in the sense that you are thinking about it..I said they were the same god in the sense that... assuming that there is only 1 god (as all three believe), they are praying to that god..saying.. god, answer my prayers, etc... each group, however, believes that this god is essentially a different god that what the others believe...one believes that Jesus was His son, one believes that He insprired muhammed and the Qur'an..and one believes that neither of these are true of god... these are in no way bigger or smaller differences than a monthiestic religion which does not have the story of the OT at it's core..at least in terms of whether or not it is the "same god"... if two people have the same view of god except for one minor detail about what this god deems as right and wrong perhaps, then you might say that they worship the same god..we say that christians worship the same god even thought all christians do not agree on everything.. or you could say that technically, they are not praying to the same god...just as you would say that a christian and an egyptian worshiping Aton aren't worshipping the same god... but either one or the other exists (or none, but basically they can't both exist)...just as the christian god cannot consider homosexuality a sin and not consider it a sin..since only one of them is real and both of these gods (as gods of the entire universe) could certianly hear the prayers of the member of the wrong religion [/ QUOTE ] I agree with most of this, especially the last paragraph. Of course, on God's side, He can hear anyone's voice, regardless of how mistaken that person is about Him. WE ARE ALL MISTAKEN ABOUT WHO GOD IS. The point is to actually share all of the same beliefs in common. That is the ideal of any self-respecting Church. That's why there are so many divisions. That is the meaning of being in communion-- to share the same beliefs in the heart, so that in Communion-- the sacrifice, the faithful believers can share in the same Body and Blood of Christ, the same Living God. In Christian theology, through Communion the faithful become ONE body-- the Body of Christ. If some person partakes of that and does not believe that God is real, then they are not part of that Body. They are not worshiping the same God. Neither is anyone else who does not partake of that. This is the Christian teaching, in the Bible. Of course the One and the same God knows all people, regardless of what they believe, and he can hear and answer their prayers. The paragraph that I've italicized I can't understand.
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#29
10-11-2006, 08:54 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
Because I worship God. Mohommedans also claim to worship the same God. As a worshipper of the God whom they claim to worship, I have something to say about that. I do not know what is in the hearts of individual Mohommedans, but I do know their doctrines and I have read some of their sacred texts. [/ QUOTE ] you have experienced no more of Islam than an atheist could have..but at least an athiest doesn't have to go off the assumption that Islam is not true [ QUOTE ] An atheist claims that there is no God, and so does not worship God. He has no experience of his own religious tradition to relate to the Mohammedan one. [/ QUOTE ] many atheists do have experience with religious tradition... and again, atheist can independently relate them all without worrying that god may be angry that we did not go off of the faulty assumption that the christian god is the one true god [ QUOTE ] I say "Mohammedan" and not "Muslim" for a reason. "Muslim" means "one who worships the true God." Since I believe this is a false appellation, incorrectly describing their religion, I use "Mohammedan"-- follower of Mohammed. I am not alone in this. This is the same that was done for all other heresies. The followers of the heresy of Arius were called "Arians." The followers of the heresy of Nestorius are called "Nestorians." [/ QUOTE ] I suppose that is inconsequential, but again, this just point out your biases on this subject (I will also say that atheists certainly have biases as well, but the nature of out beliefs compared to yours allows us to interpret information more fairly without the problems a thiest may face with considering all possibilities [ QUOTE ] Do you also see that because I am a Christian this is more important to me? [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't lump you in with them in any sense that would offend you..the whole question of whether or not the gods are the same is just a matter of semantics..as I tried to explain [ QUOTE ] I do not want to be arbitrarily lumped into a group with Mohammedans by atheists or agnostics who know nothing of these things and think there is nothing at stake. [/ QUOTE ] "know nothing of these things"???...that is simply untrue as I explained earlier [ QUOTE ] For example, one might be inclined to respond-- how can you say all that about Islam? Just because it's not the same as your religion it has to be wrong? Well, yea. What do you think religion is, a favorite color? [/ QUOTE ] and this is why your comment about how atheists shouldn't repond to this post is backwards...there is no information to be gained about the OPs question if we assume that one of the gods is the one that exists...they would be interchangeable in the discussion since it makes no mention of their validity.
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#30
10-11-2006, 08:57 PM
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Re: Do Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same god?
[ QUOTE ]
Yea, you're right. It's just frustrating. For me, Christ is the meaning of life. [/ QUOTE ] And for others he isn't. Do you get so upset every time someone holds a position that's different than yours? [ QUOTE ] Whereas for any other topic, one would yield to an expert or someone who knew what they were talking about. [/ QUOTE ] You are talking about a personal belief. You are no more an expert on whether god exists than an athiest, Muslim, or anyone else. Neither is the pope, for that matter. [ QUOTE ] One would think that someone with some experience of God (whether real or imaginary) would know more about the God of their experience than someone who claims that God doesn't exist. [/ QUOTE ] Of course you have more knowledge of your own subjective experiences than someone else. What does that prove? [ QUOTE ] But it seems that instead of accepting this, those who believe God doesn't exist think that they are therefore entitled to make pronouncements about things concerning God. [/ QUOTE ] The only pronouncements most athiests/agnosics make about god is that they see no evidence that he exists. You may feel differently about this, which is ok by me. [ QUOTE ] An atheist claims that there is no God, and so does not worship God. He has no experience of his own religious tradition to relate to the Mohammedan one. [/ QUOTE ] You do realize that many athiests practiced a religion for many years, and many also have years of religious training and study? You talk as if no athiests have any clue about religion, when many (if not most) belonged to a religion at some point. [ QUOTE ] For example, one might be inclined to respond-- how can you say all that about Islam? Just because it's not the same as your religion it has to be wrong? Well, yea. What do you think religion is, a favorite color? [/ QUOTE ] I understand what you are saying, but your loyalty to your chosen religion has zero bearing on whether you are correct or not.
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