Last party session, 30/60 high

Bartholow · #1 10-13-2006, 12:09 PM

The $30/$60 on Party has been great lately, I'll be sad to see it go. People were limping like crazy and showing down very weak hands. It was tough to knock anyone out when you wanted to (so I was doing some "representing" of wanting to knock people out at times when I really wanted to build a pot).

The first limper in this hand was actually one of the more reasonable players, second limper was definitely one of the fish.

Questions include but are not limited to:
- is the 3rd street call ok? Didn't think a raise would get me headsup at this point.
- on 4th I think my raise could be flawed, given our boards the other two players are going to either fold regardless or call regardless of whether I raise, right?
-should I bet river?

7 Card Stud High ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (2.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

5th Street - (3.25 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.25 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.25 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___???
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___???

Total pot: (7.25 BB)

iamastud · #2 10-13-2006, 12:30 PM

I just want to comment about 3rd.

I think raising here is better. You will eliminate at least 1 player, which is reason enough to raise, plus you likely have the best hand at this point and need to bet that value. Why call and invte a 4 way pot, having to then deal with someone pairing their door card and then being in a difficult position as to whether to fold or not. Calling here on 3rd invotes disaster and problems. Better to raise it here than to have to raise on 4th to thin the field, as you did. If your hand was good enough to on 4th, it was good enough to open on 3rd with the raise.

Bartholow · #3 10-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Yeah, I think there are arguments for raising 3rd. Not going to get too into that here, but do want to mention that my line actually makes it MUCH easier to play against a paired doorcard, IMHO. I know that part of what you are saying is that with less people in it will just happen less, but my read is that only the bring in would be at all likely to fold, and he could certainly call the way this game has been playing.

Anyway, would still love to hear people's views on 3rd (as well as the rest of it).

Wahoo73 · #4 10-13-2006, 01:02 PM

I have no problem with your call on 3rd street inasmuch as you're last to act, one of your Js is dead, you have a weak kicker, and as you assessed that it would be unlikely to get an isolation out of your raise.

I don't particularly like your raise on 4th street because you don't improve, your new high kicker (the T) is compromised, and I'd put seat 5 on a hand like (QK)JT.

IMO, 5th and 6th are fine and I think I'd bet the river since you caught a card he presumably could use, the A.

PoorLawyer · #5 10-13-2006, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to comment about 3rd.

I think raising here is better. You will eliminate at least 1 player, which is reason enough to raise, plus you likely have the best hand at this point and need to bet that value. Why call and invte a 4 way pot, having to then deal with someone pairing their door card and then being in a difficult position as to whether to fold or not. Calling here on 3rd invotes disaster and problems. Better to raise it here than to have to raise on 4th to thin the field, as you did. If your hand was good enough to on 4th, it was good enough to open on 3rd with the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it easier to fold to a paired doorcard when you just limp?

iamastud · #6 10-13-2006, 02:11 PM

Letting more people stay in past 3rd allows for the paired doorcard to happen more often in the hand. As far as getting away from the hand when someone pairs doorcard, it should always be easy to get away from such a hand, whether it was raised or not.

Now by raising, you at least know that the people have something when they call your raise and thus if they pair the door card you kno that their are good chances that he has trips or 2 pair, but if it is an unraised pot on 3rd, you do not have this information on 4th should the situation arise.

But also, the reason to raise is not just to get people out but also to get more money into the pot when you believe that you have the best hand.

FishySayBANG! · #7 10-13-2006, 05:45 PM

I think 3rd street is very close. You probably dont have an overwelming equity advantage over their range so I might play slow and re-evaluate on 4th sometimes, or raise 3rd and play fast sometimes.

In the heat of the moment I would definitly bet the river, but upon further evaluation I think checking is best unless you think he will pay off with a small two pair.

Checking induces bluffs / bets from a small two pair
Checking avoids being raised by a straight
Checking also misses value though when two small pair checks behind.

This guy was the fish though right? If I knew he was a fish I would be more likely to bet I guess. Against a good player I would check.

Also, 4th is very good because even though they might fold for one bet isnt getting money in against a worse pair or draw a good play? Or is the idea that you wanted to pop him on 5th?

My thoughts are out of order here but I was just typing and thinking. Just really learning this game basically even though my main game is stud8. Thanks

FishySayBANG! · #8 10-13-2006, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly like your raise on 4th street because you don't improve, your new high kicker (the T) is compromised, and I'd put seat 5 on a hand like (QK)JT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, when he bets 4th I put him mostly on things like KQJT
QJTT, JTT9, XsTsJsTx but he could also have random crap as the OP said he was the fish. Even though the other players probably fold a lot even if the Hero DOESNT raise, doesnt raising get more value out of our hand because we are usually ahead?

ob1 · #9 10-17-2006, 02:49 PM

i think your play on 3rd could go either way- like you said, it will only force the bring in out, this hand reminds me of a lot of the 10/20 players on stars, they love the limp call. I also think that the 4th play is very good, i understand why people think that it is questionable but i like it against weak players, think of his betting hands- kqjt, jttx,jt89, maybe even a 3 suited gutshot. Anyway my point is that you are ahead of all of these hands, the raise forces out the bring in and early limp, which u wanted. He likely would have raised from later position with only you to "come through" with any hand that had you beat even the unlikely pair of jacks with other kicker. SO .. i think that you are def. ahead on 4th and should raise to thin the field, esp. against weak players. 7th is a tougher decision because his board screams straight draw and you dont want to be raised.. like the previous post... against a weaker player i would be compelled to bet, a stronger player i would check knowing he would not pay me off with a lesser 2 pair.

Bartholow · #10 10-17-2006, 03:35 PM

RESULTS (for you flat-readers):

As those of you who looked at the total pot must have noticed, I checked the river and he checked behind. Turned out he had AK down for a gutshot the whole way. I feel happy with my play on this hand.