Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

electrical · #1 11-29-2007, 08:50 PM

Cooperative betting strategy in a three way pot is an element of good poker, not collusion. Even so, this was just a normal c/r on Five to eliminate a better high hand. Normal.

roggles · #2 11-29-2007, 10:34 PM

Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

Raxxmataxx · #3 11-29-2007, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board?

[/ QUOTE ]The point is that he's mostly in pretty good shape if you fold, but in terrible shape no matter what if you stick around.

It's a little doubtful that he has enough to isolate, but it's far better than calling in pretty much any scenario.

And no, you can't really tell that he's doing this sort of play since he would play two pair or trips the same way. In which case you're completely destroyed.

Thinking about it, with your dead outs and the huge downside of him having a better high hand folding seems best. Possibly you're better off 3-betting, but the pot seems to small to warrant getting free-rolled for 2-3 streets.

Phat Mack · #4 11-30-2007, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. But if he has you on three low cards and two bricks, this is his chance to promote his 44 before you have a chance to pair you ace or brick.

As electrical says, all hi-lo games have this tactical element of ad-hoc implied collusion to build pots and/or to promote hands. These partnerships change from hand to hand. Nothing is more annoying than to be in a hi-lo pot when your implied partner doesn't understand his role. (Studying these partnerships and failed partnerships is highly profitable. Learn to see them coming.)

He made a good play.

roggles · #5 11-30-2007, 06:56 PM

Why do you guys think I don't understand the point of cooperative betting? I'm just saying I have a hard time finding this play more profitable for him than a fold. I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

PokrLikeItsProse · #6 11-30-2007, 08:33 PM

I have a hard time understanding why you seem so incredulous about players making what appear to you to be aggressive, non-good plays. If you've never been raised off the best hand before, then you're probably a calling station.

Phat Mack · #7 12-01-2007, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how he reduced two profitabilities. It's a zero sum game, isn't it?

roggles · #8 12-01-2007, 02:30 PM

There are 3 players in the hand ...

Phat Mack · #9 12-01-2007, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are 3 players in the hand ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're saying that Player 7 is taking his money and your money and giving it to Player 3? I don't get it...

Edit: If Player 3 has a wheel, Player 7 cost him 3BBs.

Micturition Man · #10 12-01-2007, 03:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exaggerating how good a board of 235 rainbow on 5th is, especially with low limit players who play any razz hand on 3rd.

Add to that that a lot of people raise most of their low draws on 4th and the 44 guy could be a favorite over 235's distribution here.