simple hand vs good player - Page 2

surfdoc · #11 10-08-2007, 12:45 PM

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If you c/c flop and turn somehow checks through then I'm assuming you mean c/r river because betting would be horrible.

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I think horrible is a little strong a word here. He may look me up with AQ/AJ that won't bet, and occasionally make an ill advised bluff-raise.

HOWMANY · #12 10-08-2007, 03:14 PM

So 2 hands in his range you get 1 bet but you miss 1 bet against everything else. And he might bet/call with AQ anyway. And it's not super likely he's capping AJ. Betting is profitable but c/r is about a trillion times better.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #13 10-08-2007, 05:13 PM

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Isn't it funny that there is zero chance anyone is ever folding TT+ here? I'm not saying its not correct to call down there I'm just saying I remember playing 5/10 6m like 2-3 years ago and it would have been laughable bad to continue past the flop vs a "standard TAG" then. Everyone's a maniac now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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I just wanted to point out that folding QQ right away on the flop is still gonna be the best play in a vacuum vs many tags in this spot. In fact there are still enough of these tag types that we should all be on the lookout for them so we dont have to pay off all the way in these spots. I can think of 3 tags off the top of my head where calling down a flop check/raise with QQ is just giving money away: Surfdoc, Thehip41, and me.

I think thats why Surfdoc brought this thread up cuz its hard for our flop check/raise to not be exploitable in this spot since the kind of tag like Surf or me will have Kx+ or better in this spot every time. But theres a reason why we can be this exploitable....becuz nobody folds 88+ or better in this spot.

In the rare case when were against an opponent than can fold a hand like QQ here, then there has to be a better strategy than check/raising the flop.

Choosing between these lines should be fine:

1) Donk flop cuz nobody believes donkbets

2) Check/call donk turn

3) Check/call, check/call, donk river

4) Check/call, check/call, check/raise river

5) check/call, check/raise.

Surfdoc, I think this is an excellent thread simply becuz youre encouraging thought in a spot where most people dont think anymore.

The reason I quoted Deathdonkey's statement is cuz I agree with him. Nobody is folding TT+ here. It is my contention that against a non-insignificant population of tags at the mid-limits, we can makes these folds. Of course as I write this, I am reminded of a statement I once heard Clarkmeister's say: "The more 'correct' folds that I look for, the less money I seem to make."

This game is fun isnt it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

surfdoc · #14 10-08-2007, 09:25 PM

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So 2 hands in his range you get 1 bet but you miss 1 bet against everything else. And he might bet/call with AQ anyway. And it's not super likely he's capping AJ. Betting is profitable but c/r is about a trillion times better.

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How many hands do you think he has in his range that bet flop and check behind on the turn?

HOWMANY · #15 10-08-2007, 09:39 PM

I have no idea honestly, I don't have a check button. The only hand I ever see myself checking is like AJ. Against some people I could imagine QQ/AQ but I think 99-JJ need to be bet always.

I really don't see him checking behind often/ever realistically but I think c/r river is easily the play if he does check. Even if he checks behind he learns the lesson that it's never okay to bet just because we check as Thor's mighty hammer can always be waiting for him.

surfdoc · #16 10-08-2007, 10:11 PM

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I just wanted to point out that folding QQ right away on the flop is still gonna be the best play in a vacuum vs many tags in this spot. In fact there are still enough of these tag types that we should all be on the lookout for them so we dont have to pay off all the way in these spots. I can think of 3 tags off the top of my head where calling down a flop check/raise with QQ is just giving money away: Surfdoc, Thehip41, and me.

I think thats why Surfdoc brought this thread up cuz its hard for our flop check/raise to not be exploitable in this spot since the kind of tag like Surf or me will have Kx+ or better in this spot every time. But theres a reason why we can be this exploitable....becuz nobody folds 88+ or better in this spot.

In the rare case when were against an opponent than can fold a hand like QQ here, then there has to be a better strategy than check/raising the flop.

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Yes. You have summarized a lot of the thoughts I was having after playing the hand. It is somewhat discouraging that for the price of one small bet in the form of a preflop cap that villian can then play perfectly after the flop and release immediately to my flop CR. I don't think it is just a select few where calling the flop CR down is bad. I think it is bad against almost all good playing 2p2 type tags. It will be pretty obvious that an adjustment will need to be made if either party starts capping or 3 betting too light and the one who stays ahead in the information war will certainly profit.

Lets reverse the situation and put me as the preflop capper in position. Now you try to CR the flop with 99. You are setting yourself up to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter in the form of a variety of lines. Having the lead on the turn will just not be a good idea at all. I guess what this all means is that good players don't give each other much action unless the game gets very short and spewy and although we won't be in this spot often it seems that formulating a plan ahead of time is pretty smart.

Enon · #17 10-09-2007, 05:42 AM

As others have eloquently said, you should checkraise the flop as a default since even most solid tags are taking a pair of sevens and up to showdown. But because the board is rainbow and you have 2 aces, I'd like to give him free cards with hands like unpaired high cards and because you have 2 aces, I'm also less concerned about giving him opportunity to bet turn and free showdown an ace.

I think this is a great spot to vary your play and wait to raise a lot of turns.

dangerfish · #18 10-09-2007, 11:55 AM

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As others have eloquently said, you should checkraise the flop as a default since even most solid tags are taking a pair of sevens and up to showdown. But because the board is rainbow and you have 2 aces, I'd like to give him free cards with hands like unpaired high cards and because you have 2 aces, I'm also less concerned about giving him opportunity to bet turn and free showdown an ace.

I think this is a great spot to vary your play and wait to raise a lot of turns.

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Not sure about this. He capped what cards do you want him to pair? There is a K on the flop and you have 2 A's you think he has qj? IMO, this is not an issue of varying your line, it's an issue of varying your hands.