Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.

[Mat Sklansky]

Farewell to 2+2

From: Kaj

Mason,

I've enjoyed this site for a long time. However, I will no longer be posting here or purchasing 2+2 material. I believe this site is completely unprofessional in the way it is managed. I know, it's just a message board, lighten up. That said, I have no problem with posters being rude, crude, witty, humorous, combative, whatever. My problem is that, IMO, your moderators represent your company, even if they are volunteers. The tone of the site seems to be a bunch of cliques ruled over arbitrarily by a some very rude, childish, power-tripping internet forum moderators. Not all are this way, but certainly more than a few. What's worse, is that the administrators of this site have ample evidence of this behavior as the very forum designed to discuss these issues (ATF) has become a cesspool of mods berating posters. On one hand, I enjoy such hazing and humor, but from other posters, not the administrators of the site itself. It casts a very unprofessional and unwelcoming image to your site. Some of the mods in question are over the top in flaunting the very rules of the forum they moderate (NT! is a good example of a mod who enjoys showing he needn't comply with 2+2 rules on profanity, insults, etc.). If mods can't be a good example and neutral in their style, then your site has devolved into a bunch of childish cliques. I remember in the past much more unbiased and respectful moderation by people like andyfox, compared to the juvenile insults of a tuq, jman220, NT!, stabn, and the like.

I'm sure a lost poster is no big deal, even if under my previous account I've been here since 2003. But I do suggest you take a look at how those charged with running your site represent your publishing company. I will be selling my 2+2 books on CraigsList and no longer buying them in the future.

Respectfully,
Kaj

[iron81]

I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard, but it would be nice if someone handled the srs biz in ATF if I'm away or don't know the answer. I assume this PM is related to Mat's new ATF sticky.

I think one reason for the idea that "Mods gang up on users" in ATF is the don't criticize other mods rule. If a user criticizes a mod in ATF, it is basically against the rules to take the user's side. Since mods are a high percentage of posters in ATF, this can lead to a distorted view about the wisdom of a moderating decision.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should be, and I've made it a point to do so myself. In my point of view we represent 2+2. 2+2 is a company of excellence. I hold myself to their high standards and believe we all should.

I also don't believe Mods should be doing any trash talking on the forums. Do it privately via PM if there's something that absolutely has to be said. In the Books and Publications forum I try to delete any post that includes any type of abuse, personal attack, or something that is not constructive to the thread or 2+2, in general. All members engaging in such activities are warned via PM or by a general statement I post in the forum. For example: I recently posted this in a thread where things were getting personal after I deleted all posts containing nonconstructive material.

[ QUOTE ]
I would just like to take a moment to remind everyone that this forum and all of 2+2 for that matter does not exist for members to engage in personal attacks and other childish behaviors. There may be some areas of this website where such things are allowed, but this forum is for the discussion of poker literature and other media and publications. I will not allow this type of bickering in this forum.

Those who have been members and actively participate on these forums know that I am extremely fair and logical in my reasoning. I rarely use my authority as a moderator. I credit the vast majority of that to the quality of the members who actively participate in this forum. They do not require me to act because they conduct themselves as gentleman. They use this forum and others on 2+2 to better themselves and others.

Debating topics is strongly encouraged on 2+2. Some debates escalate to arguments. Still I consider this to be acceptable. If everyone agreed all the time there would be nothing to discuss. But when the debates or arguments turn personal and members are attacking each other there is nothing for anyone to gain. Therefore, they are pointless in that they do not benefit anyone.

If any of you wish to continue to your "e-fighting" I urge you to take it back to whatever website it came from. I will suspend or ban permanently anyone who continues to behave as was done previously in this thread. I would much rather not have to do this. I know that there is much we can all learn from and share with you. I hope this thread can continue in a constructive manner. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any Mod who can't conductive themselves in a constructive and respectable manner should be relieved of their duties as a Mod.

[Dids]

"2+2 is a company of excellence."

Doesn't "a note about the english" or whatever kinda blow this one out the water?

I would say 2p2's standards are about I dunno, bellybutton level.

[deacsoft]

Bellybutton level may be where things are now (what they've become) at least as far as the forum goes. As a company Mason prides himself in only publishing top-shelf books that are well written. I think it's only fair to provide our volunteer service on the in a way that meets with his standards of publishing. There's no reason we can't hold our members to that standard as well. But first we, as Mods, need to lead by example.

I agree with much of the PMer stated. These forums were once a very respectable place and an excellent source to become a better poker player. Now it seems that they are being over run with childishness. There are Mods that are certainly fueling the amount of childish behavior. Simply laying down some guidelines that are little more than kindergarten level behavioral standards would contribute to much better moderation and an overall much better poker forum.

[Dids]

deac,

The forums were like you say back when the avg age of the 2p2 reader/customer was a LOT older. 2p2 has a different readership, and a different target demo now, and I think the forums simply reflect that.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say 2p2's standards are about I dunno, bellybutton level.

[/ QUOTE ]
As always Bellybutton level is relitive. My bellybutton is higher than Did's, I am taller than him. The forums he moderate need a lower bellybutton threshold than my forum. The problem comes when people from the low bellybutton threshold forums explore other forums with a higher bellybutton threshold and mess with their culture - you get pissed off users or disenchanted end users.

I'd like to counter some of the things we have read so far i this thread.

1) I think the median age of 2+2 isnt as low as everyone thinks, we are postulating it is around 25-26.

2) There are countless older people I meet who refuse to post on 2+2 because the regulars are childish.

I think there is a balance in this mix somewhere. Back in the day when Studio 54 was the center of the universe Steve Rubell used to stand outside behind the velvet ropes (Studio 54 was kinda the first disco that chose who was allowed to come in) creating what he called a "Mixed Sallad". If he only let in beautiful people and celebrities then people would get bored. If he let in too many average Joes the celebrities would leave. He was a master of balance, he made sure that everyone who came inside felt the same experience, and everyone would become equal once they passed the velvet ropes. Of course there is not a 2+2 VIP guest list, no velvet ropes and anyone is invited to post here, but I think we can learn from Steve's approach. If we tilt to far to one segment we loose balance of the user mix.

[tuq]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't believe Mods should be doing any trash talking on the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care what color your username is, I think calling people "stupid" or "retarded" is a tool that should be used sparingly and only when appropriate, if at all. But others - mods included - tend to make these words part of their regular forum diet. I'm tending to agree with those who say that mods set the tone, represent the site, etc., and as such should perhaps post with that in mind, but it's not my call and I can certainly see the counterargument.

As for the "who is Kaj" debate, I think a good half of his posts were in ATF where he constantly refused to answer that question, even though it wouldn't have been hard to do and would have put the matter to rest once and for all. He was being deliberately evasive for seemingly no reason.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling people "stupid" or "retarded" is a tool that should be used sparingly and only when appropriate, if at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm would agree with "if at all". How old are we? I remember when I was very young I was told, "if you don't have anything nice to say; don't say anything". I also remember being told to, "treat other people the way you want to be treated". I'm no saint. I've broken both of these little rules countless times. However, I have come to realize that if you really need to lay it down on someone you have to at least do it privately. Doing this on a public forum only gets people pissed off and filled with a need to defend themselves or counter punch. Then before you know it there's this huge public feud going on. It also makes us, as mods and representatives, of 2+2 look like a bunch of [censored].

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard,

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the point. The compliant was that the mods weren't being held to the SAME standards as other posters when it comes to non-modding posts. He has a valid point, whether the reds want to do anything about it is their call.