.25/.50 LO8 trapped between heavy action on river

sfgiants · #1 07-22-2007, 10:20 PM

Reads: I'll post stats in the following format:
VPIP/Went to Showdown/Won at Showdown (Number of hands)

UTG is 21/43/53 (110)Seems okay preflop but tends to go too far in hands.

UTG +1 is 28/47/48 (126)
I've been multitabling so I don't have too strong of a read. I haven't seen anything completely out of line, however.

CO is 32/60/49 (110)
No specific reads outside of these numbers.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (15 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO raises, Hero calls grudgingly, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, CO caps, Hero ?????

Perhaps I should have checked the turn?

Habib Marwan · #2 07-22-2007, 11:29 PM

you need to try and keep the pot small. i hate raising the flop and leading the turn. by the river the hand is hard to get away from

Bad Beat Jason · #3 07-23-2007, 12:55 AM

I disagree completely. With seven other players seeing this flop, you have to raise to define your hand and to weed out some weaker hands that could be live against you. You have to bet out on the turn too, couldn't have asked for a much better card.

But according to Habib, I'm a poker moron. So what do i know?

cjs · #4 07-23-2007, 09:31 AM

The problem is your only playing for half and straights are vulnerable to redraws to higher straights and flushes. I agree with Habib don't raise flop and keep pot small. Turn check call and get aggressive on a good river.

Bad Beat Jason · #5 07-23-2007, 10:00 AM

After thinking about it more, I too prefer the check/call on the turn instead of betting out. With all the big bets in the pot (11) at this point, it will be doubtful to get much in the way of folds. I still like flop raise.

Buzz · #6 07-23-2007, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should have checked the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]Giant Fan – Perhaps so, but whether to bet or check a middle card straight on the turn (or flop) is pretty close to even in the long run. You might do best by mixing up your play.

After the turn, you have the nut straight, but any spade, eight, six, five, three, seven, or nine will enable a better high hand. That's roughly half the deck, actually, 25/44 of the possible river cards, and is more or less typical of flopped or turned middle card straights. And you're only playing for half the pot. But even though the river enables a better high hand, sometimes nobody will actually have the better hand and your straight will win (or tie) for high.

The other nineteen possible river cards will not enable a better possible high hand, but with this many opponents seeing the flop, you should expect to get quartered between 33% and 40% of the time.

So roughly when you don't break even by tying, you'll win for high about half the time and lose (having been beaten on the river) the other half of the time. We could figure it more precisely, but that's probably close enough. It’s close to a coin flip.

With exactly four of you in the pot, for every four chips that go into the pot, two go into your half. When you win, you are awarded those two chips (in addition to half of the rest of the pot, but forget the rest of the pot for fresh money considerations). But since one of those chips is yours, you actually only win one new chip.

When you lose, you lose one chip.

Thus with four of you in the pot, initiating fresh money into the pot when you have the nut middle card straight but no decent low is approximately a break even situation.

With five of you in the pot, it's favorable for you to introduce fresh money into the pot (by betting or raising) but only if you don't think you'll knock out anybody. This is a pulling situation. You want the low hands and non-nut straights (eight high and six high straights) tagging along so that they will pay you off on the river.

You'd maybe like to get rid of anybody with a set, lest the board pair on the river, but that's nigh onto impossible, as is getting rid of somebody with the nut flush draw. However, by betting or raising you might knock out two low pairs or a low flush draw. Thus it's a bit confusing because you can't generally tell for sure who has what, you want to get rid of some hands but not others, but you can’t tell until you see the river card what hands you would rather have continue and what hands you would rather see fold.

In this particular case, you find yourself caught in the middle and getting jammed (whipsawed). But sometimes people jam with less than the nuts and sometimes two low hands will jam against each other, or two lows also with lower straights than yours might jam. Very hard to advise you what to do here, especially at this limit. Once you have called the first double bet, probably tend to call the second double bet also. Maybe you'll only get quartered for high, or maybe neither opponent even has you beaten for high. I agree it's an ugly place to be.

Habib makes a good point.

Buzz

bbartlog · #7 07-23-2007, 10:11 AM

Even if your opponents hold hands such that every board pairing, every spade, and every seven or nine give someone else a better high, you still have enough pot equity on the turn (20% or so) that getting more money in 5-handed is OK. But you could also just check/call.

Also, I think raising the flop is fine. You want to give someone holding 9Txx a good reason to fold; likewise getting some backdoor flushes to fold would help. If the board had two of a suit I would just call though.

On the river I call. With four people calling every bet it's entirely possible that someone is jamming with just the nut low (especially at these limits) or with nut low plus non-nut straight (e.g. A259). While you lose most of the time in this spot I think overall calling is still +EV.

sfgiants · #8 07-24-2007, 02:16 AM

Very good responses, thank you all.

[ QUOTE ]
The other nineteen possible river cards will not enable a better possible high hand, but with this many opponents seeing the flop, you should expect to get quartered between 33% and 40% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this is a lot higher than I expected. I need to be a bit more aware about the possibility of getting quartered for the high half of the pot in large, multiway pots.

After reading the responses, I would still be inclined to raise on the flop to define my hand/get rid of random middling draws. However, I would probably check/call the turn, as some of you have suggested.

If there were say, only 3 people to the turn (rather than 6), would check/calling be the best play or would I want to protect my hand by betting?

sfgiants · #9 07-31-2007, 04:35 AM

I received some great responses in this thread, but I am still wondering about the hypothetical case where there would only be three people on the turn. Would this be a spot to protect my hand by betting out or a spot to get cautious by check/calling? Or, as Buzz suggested, would this be a spot to mix it up?

Gitz · #10 07-31-2007, 09:24 AM

sfgiants,

Just a couple of things with this starting hand in the BB. Of course U wouldn't play this hand unless it was a check or maybe if it was HU in the BB call a raise. But in .25/.50 that is very unlikely. For me I have to hit Quads or a Full House on the flop almost to raise with this hand or lead out. The reason being it can almost never take down a pot by itself.
In your hand I let the low's do the betting until the river if I'm still the Nut's then I raise.

Paul