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Old 11-08-2007, 12:37 PM
CletusVanDamme CletusVanDamme is offline
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Default Turn and river decisions: opinions?

Weekly 2/5 PLO8. Normal lineup of mostly bad players, maybe 2 semi-tough opponents. All players in hand have roughly $700.
I limp in EP with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Two more calls, before SB makes it $15. SB is semi-tough. He makes a lot of these $15/20 preflop raises, hoping to get some money in the pot for a big payoff. This raise doesn't necessarily mean he has a premium hand. BB calls, I call and LP calls.

Flop is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB bets $25, BB calls. I decided to call and probably have to make a tougher decision on the turn. LP also calls.

TUrn is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB bets $100, and BB calls. I think small blind most likely has a good hand, certainly one way if not two way, but not nut low or nut straight. I consider raising another $200 here, but the made low and flush draws concern me, since my low may not be good here, and my straight is vulnerable. I call, as does LP.

River is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB bets $150. BB hesitantly calls. I was hoping for a fold from BB so I could make a little raise and maybe get rid of LP if he's also holding A3. However with his call, knowing I'm facing at least 2 opponents while I hold 2nd nuts both ways, I call.

Is the turn and river play too tight or too loose? On both streets, I wanted to pull the trigger, but didn't do it.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:45 PM
howzit howzit is offline
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Default Re: Turn and river decisions: opinions?

pot/allin on the turn. put tremendous pressure on the other one way hands tieing you. sometimes, naked nut one way hands muck if you're image is good.

problem with raising river is that King is a total nothing card. doesn't help anybody so nobody folds.

the problem with raising turn all in is that if somebody has second nut low but drawing live for high (set/nut flush draw) they will never fold. you're praying not to get quartered.

worst case scenario is the nut hands don't toss it and you're broke. this is what you were worried about so you must think that the guys in the game are too pot stuck to fold naked one way nut hands.

so, i'm ok with going with 2nut/2nut all in to protect my half of the pot and put on massive pressure on guys looking scared.

(i play a lot of O8 and NLHE so i'm trying to apply what i know from those games. but if i was in the game this is how i would play it.)
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:54 PM
rando rando is offline
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Default Re: Turn and river decisions: opinions?

By the time you get to the river, a call is your only play on the end, no value to raising or folding unless your reads are much more clear. I'm putting SB on A23x, as his good preflop raise and pull bets to river value bet don't seem like a 2-way beast. BB is a much tougher read. It is very possible he has a set of 5s (maaaybe 4s) or just A2 with nothing - and if he has less than that, you love having him at the table. Of course another nightmare is he has 36 as well. I think in the future you might want to play these spots 50-50 as you did and as howzit suggests. But a lot of it is dependent on reads... if BB is slow to call, think back to what other spots he has done this, or what river losses he suffered that night when calling a river value bet, and try and back into a likely range that way.
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Old 11-08-2007, 04:03 PM
CletusVanDamme CletusVanDamme is offline
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Default Re: Turn and river decisions: opinions?

One thing I know here: none of these players, on the flop or turn, is folding a naked nut hand, hi or lo. Won't happen. Only the SB would actually realize that it may not be a great situation for him, but he'd still call.

I really think I played this hand too weakly on the turn. For some reason, I convinced myself that either A. either the BB or LP had A2 and would not fold to any raise on the turn, and that one of the three had the same straight I did or B. Either the BB or LP had A3 with the flush draw, which neither or them will fold, plus someone has the same straight or better straight than me.
Normally, I don't play like I think there are monsters hiding under the bed, but I did.
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