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  #41  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:27 AM
PokrLikeItsProse PokrLikeItsProse is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

Clearly, the solution is to take all those U.S. troops in Iraq and withdraw them by using them to invade Israel and Saudia Arabia, uniting Israeli and Arab in the struggle against American imperialism.

Bonus points if W installs his brother Jeb as king of Jerusalem.
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:27 AM
Kaj Kaj is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

You:
[ QUOTE ]
Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You again:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:31 AM
tomdemaine tomdemaine is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
You:
[ QUOTE ]
Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You again:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because those dirty aye-rabs will eat your babies.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:42 AM
Bedreviter Bedreviter is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
You:
[ QUOTE ]
Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You again:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thier strength is based upon prior help and also the expected future help from the US. A lot of the aid that goes to Israel is used to buy American military equipment, and Israel and the US are cooperating strongly on the research and development of weapons so its not like the US is not getting anything out of it themselves. The approximatly 3b$ the US gives to Israel annualy cannot be counted solely as a loss, as the US get back from ISrael buying American equipment and the advantages of having a close partner to cooperate with in the the development of newer systems.
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:48 PM
Goater Goater is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

Whilst I have no love for the Palestinian people, I think the tone of the OP is not helpful. The Palestinian people, through their own fault and not, are the biggest victims of this situation and Israelis are clearly not secure (as individuals) from terror.

I have discussed in previous threads why I think that peace has not been found and i dont want to get into another arguament regarding the minutiae of the various prior peace proceses. However, I will just say that there is zero chance of anything good coming from this new dialogue.

The key question is why is this happening now? My speculation is that bush wants some sort of peace process to deflect from the failure of the Iraq campaign (not likely to be succesful), to placate muslims and possibly build a coalition of arab states for a potential move against Iran (not likely to work), to leave a legacy of something good (as its unlikely to succeed, this wont work either). To be honest, im not sure why the US is pushing this as I cant believe that they believe it could be successful.

From the Israeli side, Olmert is grabbing at straws as he is the most unpopular Israeli Prime Minister in the country's history. He has no mandate for sweeping unilateral concessions to the Palestinians and is trying to placate the voting public by looking like he is doing something for peace. Sharon did the same thing, Barak also.

On the Palestinian side, Abbas is so weak that he cannot possibly follow through on anything he agrees on with the Israelis. He is virtually insignificant inside the Palestinian territories. Were he to agree to a genuine deal, he would probably be dead within the month.

Each side has its own reasons for going ahead with this process, none of which are that real peace is achievable or possible at the moment. Thats whats so sad about all this... and whats so dangerous. Every time hopes and feelings are raised and failure ensues, a spasm of violence is the consequence. This was seen most recently with the failure of Oslo and the start of the second intifada. The games these idiots are playing will eventually mean the death of many Israelis and Palestinians.

Is anyone seriously thinking that the weakest Israeli leader ever and the weakest Palestinian leader ever can get together with the most hated US president ever and somehow succeed where so many have failed in the past!?
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:04 PM
Goater Goater is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
In the 1993 Oslo accords, the Arabs welch on the deal by refusing to honor the terms while accepting the land-for-peace (the Gaza strip) that Israel gave. Hamas has rejected the Oslo accords while at the same time accepting the land that Israel gave up.... Again, I admire Hamas for their honesty as oppose to the lies from Fatah.

Land for peace has never worked with the Arabs, yet Bush is STUUU-PID enough to believe it will work this time...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your first paragraph. Most Israelis see very little difference in practice between Hamas and Fatah. They have both been as active as each other in terrorism against Israelis, however at least Hamas is honest about its beliefs and vision of the future. Fatah, with its leaders welcomed in international circles and having been labeled a possible peace "partner", are trying to be seen as respectable at the same time as they continue to use terror against Israeli ciivlians. The only reason they "recognised" Israel was because they were virtually dead before Oslo and saw it as a way to return to the Palestinian terrtories from exile and to regain the power they once had. They did this superbly with Fatah surpressing Palestinians and stealing huge amounts of money sent for their aid. Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai. Egypt was thrown out of the Arab league for this, consistent with Arab states principles of not making any deals with Israel and only considering force as a way of regaining Arab land which continues to this day. Of course, Sadat, after becoming the first Arab leader to visit Jerusalem and speak in the Knesset and finalising the peace deal to return all captured Egyptian territory, was assasinated.
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  #47  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:14 PM
Kurn, son of Mogh Kurn, son of Mogh is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

The sad truth here is that so far, nobody has been able to find an equitable solution.

One definition of insanity (this time I'm being serious) is repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Are we wearing foolishly rose-colored glasses by thinking that there is one iota of hope for an equitable solution?

If logic and reason tell us there is no solution, does logic and reason also tell us to pick a side and fight for victory?

The fact that I can empathize with Palestinian Arabs (were I born in Gaza and had to live their lives,I'd want to kill Israeli's, too) doesw not change the fact that the israelis are the good guys and the Arabs are the bad guys.

It may not make me feel very good about myself, but I agree with Felix.
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  #48  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:20 PM
Felix_Nietzsche Felix_Nietzsche is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]
So true.....


[ QUOTE ]
Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai.

[/ QUOTE ]
With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF). The Camp David accords is a land/money-for-peace deal so it has a greater chance of long term success.

Egypt is paid bribes (aka foreign aid) annually by the USA to honor the Camp David Accords. This foreign aid is critical in fattening up Swiss bank accounts of critical Egyptian leaders. Their leaders value money more than the wishes of the Egyptian people. Take away the bribes and I'm confident Egypt will welch on the rest of the agreement... The Egyptian people hate Israel... If their govt ever gets overthrown, then the will of the Egyptian people will compel them to go to war...

Regarding Jimmy Carter, he is no great peace maker. He is just an excellent briber. BTW, it was Jimmy Carter that made it a crime for US businesses to pay bribes to foreign businesses. In some parts of the world, bribery is a way of life and this holier-than-thou law hurts US businesses (or forces them to be more discrete with their bribes). But it is OK for Jimmy Carter to pay bribes to Israel and Egypt. Do as I say and not as I do.....

Personal story:
I use to work for a communications company and I was informed that Zimbabwe was the only country in Africa which did not have a cell phone network. The reason I was told was that Robert Mugabe was soliciting outrageous bribes for companies to operate a celluar phone network in his country. So outrageous it was not profitable to do business with him. This story is about 10 years old so perhaps things have changed but it illustrates in some countries that you pay bribes or you are not allowed to do business there...
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  #49  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:59 PM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
3. Relocate all Arabs inside Israel and dump them on the borders of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. Let their Arab brothers give them sanctuary.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?

israel should just clean their hands and do something sensible with the occupied territories and then guard their home like no other. They have to stop playing into the terrorist game and get on with their lives.
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  #50  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:46 PM
Goater Goater is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF).

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I think it is a little more complicated, this is unfortunately true. The Egyptians effectively facilitated the Hamas takeover of Gaza (and their continued supremacy there) by doing nothing to stop the rampant weapons and explosive smuggling through their border (with Gaza). Apart from possibly Jordan, the Arab countries are more than happy to encourage and support the ongoing war against Israel by proxy. This is one of the main reasons I opposed the Gaza withdrawal at the time - the absence of the IDF made it inevitable that Hamas would increase its power, take over and make a future peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians in general almost impossible.
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