What would you do?

[punkass]

[ QUOTE ]
In my room, if I deal in a player who shouldn't get a hand or deal in an empty seat, I just muck the hand. Usually it's noticed before the second card comes around, but I complete the deal as if the player were getting a hand, and then muck it. If you call the floor over, that's exactly what they'll tell me to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what happens in my experience every time this happens. No big deal at all.

Nits are just very "misdeal" happy. They can then flip up their cards and say "Oh, look, a pair of 7s. I would've hit a set man." or "Oh good, an 74, good." Even though you know they would've played that 74.

[davidlong14]

...let it go...

[DeuceKicker]

Not that it should be an overriding consideration, but wouldn't the misdeal and lack of post from new player void a jackpot should it be hit?

Edit: I could have sworn you identified the table as a BBJ-eligible table. If it isn't, then it obviously doesn't matter.

[GreedIsGood]

No way it's going to be a misdeal if you waited until all the a cards were dealt out to speak up. If you'd said something as soon as seat 9 got his first card, then maybe.

But even then, I believe the misdeal rule invovles a mistake on the first two or three cards. As described Seat 9 is the fifth card, so the dealer would probably have just continued to deal and then killed the hand anyway.

But again, there is no way after people have looked at their cards (and even if you hadn't, the dealer couldn't know this for sure), that the ruling should be for a misdeal.

[MikeTheGeek]

This looking at the cards and then asking for a misdeal really really irks me. I have a couple friends that do it constantly at our home game and are not at all ashamed. They actually think that it's ok look at cards, see junk, call misdeal, or see AA, keep quiet, then argue that the hand should play. I call them out on it and they act like 'wouldn't you do the same?'. No, I say, I wouldn't and don't.

Sorry, somewhat off topic... maybe I will go rant in the home poker forum.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Ken,

If a casino's rules say that a a player dealt in improperly is merely a dead hand that's fine. But you can't make it "player's choice". Misdeal rules tend to be very precise and there will be a natural tendency for good hands to vote "no misdeal" and bad hands to vote or try to force a "misdeal".

Here are the precise Los Angeles County Rules cut and pasted from my hard drive (I've worked on rule upgrade projects at Hollywood Park and the Bike). They are used word for word at least at Commerce, The Bicycle Casino, and Hollywood Park; the Hustler, Normandie and Hawaiian Gardens rules should be similar:

Misdeals

20. (rule numbers vary between otherwise nearly identical books - Rick) The following circumstances may cause a misdeal provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands:
a. The first card of the hand has been dealt faceup or exposed through dealer error.
b. Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer in Hold'em and Omaha.
c. Two or more extra cards have been dealt in Hold'em, Lowball, and Omaha.
d. In all games except Lowball, an incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player. (See Lowball, rule #11.)
e. The button was out of position.
f. The first card was dealt to the wrong position.
g. Cards have been dealt out of the proper sequence (all games except Lowball).
h. Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
i. A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.

21. Action is considered to occur in stud-format games when two players, in addition to the player forced to make a bring-in bet, have acted on their hands. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. Once action occurs, a misdeal can no longer be declared. The hand will be played to conclusion and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled.


Had this hand taken place in LA and a floor is called he would (or should) ask when attention was called to the error. If attention was called before there was action in two spots (as it was in the OP) he must call a misdeal per 20-h above. It's simply not a judgment call in this sort of case (judgment is involved for example in determining when attention was called to a mistake when it is close).

A floor doesn't have to be called every time. Some mistakes are so obvious to a group of regulars that they aknowledge the misdeal and toss their hands in and the dealer quickly redeals. But a floor must be called any time there is doubt. This includes times when a player doesn't understand what is happening or disputes the misdeal. You can't let a gang mentality (i.e., good hands want no misdeal, bad hands do) take over the decision on something that is very cut and dry; you simply need to be consistent and avoid an appearance of impropriety. And to those who are concerned with saving time consider that a lingering dispute often wastes far more time in the long run.

That said, many floor use poor technique in LA. For example, they arrive at the table, see one player with let's say three cards, chips for open limps in three spots and immediately declare that "there is too much action for a misdeal, the three card hand is dead and everyone else play on". If they used good technique they would have asked everyone to hold on to their cards when they arrive (to prevent bad hands "forcing" a misdeal by tossing in their cards and creating a "clusterf_ck"); determine when the mistake was brought to the attention of the table/dealer and if it was brought before there was action in two spots declare a misdeal. If attention was brought after two players act then no misdeal but the three card hand is dead.

Misdeal/no misdeal decisions done right is simple, fair and doesn't waste much time considering the alternatives (e.g., a lingering argument as to whether the last hand was valid). Unfortunately "done right" is pretty rare in most clubs.

~ Rick

[Mr Rick]

I would do nothing.

Something similar came up last weekend where the dealer had dealt one card to a guy who had not yet joined the game1. I suggested he deal the second card and muck the hand. Nobody had two cards yet and nobody objected.

Speed up the game!

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I am sick of people calling missdeal all the time...

[/ QUOTE ]
"People" do not get to call misdeals. A player can call attention to an irregularity, but players do not get to decide "I don't like my cards...MISDEAL!"

I don't much care which way the dealer goes, and if the dealer is quick to make a decision when the extra card(s) are pointed out prior to any action, I'll go along. But I want the dealer being quick and decisive and instantly mucking the extra hand, or instantly calling for the cards to be returned. What I do not want is a debate/discussion among the players, and the dealer initially mucking the extra hand and then giving in to pressure from 5 people all saying "MISDEAL" (usually while I hold AA in the BB).

I've seen it only a few times, but I love it when the dealer holds his ground. Something minor goes wrong in the deal which shouldn't be cause for a misdeal. Dealer corrects it and continues. In the meantime someone at the table who's already looked at his cards yells "MISDEAL!" and throws his cards in face up, keeps saying "MISDEAL, MISDEAL, give back your cards" as the dealer is sputtering "stop, stop, don't do that, no" and next thing you know 5 hands are in the middle. 9 out of 10 times the dealer will be exasperated and roll his eyes and agree "misdeal". But there is that rare 10% dealer who will stand firm and say "too bad, so sad--*I* never said misdeal and there's nothing wrong with the cards out there now, we play."

[RR]

Rick,
What is your opinion on action being able to occur before the dealer has completed dealing. The messiest situations I have seen involve someone in late position speaking up as soon as their is a problem, but the players up front have already acted before the dealer is done dealing.

[pfapfap]

Rick's right about these things becoming a clusterfudge. All it takes is one person screaming "misdeal!" and throwing in his cards for all the bad hands to do the same. I'm vigilant about being clear of it not being a misdeal when I see this potential. As stated above, I'll quickly and quietly muck a hand dealt to a dead spot, but if someone has an extra or not enough, I'll immediately call the floor and let everybody know it's not a misdeal, to just sit tight.