Middle limit hold 'em by Ciaffone and Brier.

[Adman]

I was going to post this in the discussion on Byron Jacobs' excellent book "How good is your limit hold 'em" where, in that thread, one poster said he was so (rightly so) impressed with Byron's book that he was going to purchase Middle limit hold 'em when he moved up in limits. I just wanted to make some comments on that book so I thought I would start a new thread altogether rather than hi-jack that one.

I know it (MLH) receives good reviews most places you do any research on it but I really disagree with the glowing reviews. First off, I don't play middle limits, I'm still grinding at 5/10 and 3/6. The highest I have played is 10/20 and then only a couple of times. Sometimes if I can't find any good games, I will even multi table a few 2/4 tables so I may or may not be qualified to pass comment on this book. If anyone thinks that is the case then take my advice with a grain of salt or tell me to beat it.

Having said that, I believe that the style of play espoused in that book would probably not even allow you to be a big winner in most low limit internet games anymore. You would just be folding too many winning hands. I know the book was written in a different time and maybe that is why the advice is so weak tight. The authors have you folding almost any one pair/ top pair type of hand any time you get popped on the turn. I don't know, maybe there was an era of poker where everyone played totally straightforwardly and every time they bet or raised with any confidence they held a huge hand but that is definitely not the case anymore, especially on the internet.

Players now are so aggressive and so tricky that a turn raise or check raise- unless it comes from a total rock- does not mean you are crushed by a long shot. I know myself that sometimes when facing blind steals from tight but aggressive players who love attacking your blinds (the type who will lay down an ace high no pair hand when he thinks he's beat) I will just check call his c-bet on the flop and then check raise him on the turn on a board of something like T663. It "represents" that you have defended your blind with something like say, 86, and then flopped trips and slowplayed it to the turn. He will lay down a hand like A9 or something. In fact the better the players (as I suspect the players at middle limits are or should be) the more likely they are to read you for trips and lay down. A total fish will call down with something like QJ so you wouldn't even bother trying a move like that on him.

I also don't like how often they frequently recommend cold calling as opposed to 3 betting, surrendering the initiative in the hand. A loose-ish guy raises with say KJ and you 3 bet him with AJs or somthing, the flop comes down, you both miss, you bet he folds. If you just cold called there, you would be the one who ends up folding when he inevitably bets into you on the flop and turn. For that reason I hate cold calling in aggressive games because unless the flop really hits you hard you are going to be driven out of the hand with aggressive betting.

Just recently, I was watching a 6 handed 75/150 game on Pacific Poker (I know that short handed is different, but 6 handed is not super shorthanded like say 3 handed and still has a lot of similarities to full games where a few players have folded) and I promise you, if you were playing Ciaffone/ Brier MLH style you would have been bet out of every single hand you played. These guys were capping pre flop with hands like 76s and just would not let up with relentless betting and raising all the way through the hand in 2 and 3 handed pots. The level of aggression was bordering on the insane. Again, the style of play BC and JB talk about it MLH would stand no chance in the super aggressive middle to higher limit games that I have watched on the internet. Just too passive and too eager to fold in the face of any aggression.

Overall I just found myself disagreeing with so many of the examples in the book that either the style of play they recommend is way too weak tight and passive for todays aggressive games, or I am a total fish and would get destroyed in any higher limit games if I played in them. Like I said, I'm not a high limit player so I could be way off the mark here, it's just my opinion and I'd be interested to see what other people think too.

[sethypooh21]

Agree 99% that the weak-tightness of MLH would get you eaten alive in most games I've seen. That said, there is some value in reading the book, if for no other reason the leaven the "Cult of Aggression" that 2+2ers tend to have, especially post-SSH.

[bernie]

I think you misinterpreted alot of the book.

Yes, alot of it is weak-tight in many of todays games. However, alot of it is dead on against certain opponents that you will still find in todays games. Know your opponents. Alot of it is still relevant in multiway pots. People play a little more str8forward in those pots.

Certain sections are gold. Ie...bluffing and overcards. Worth the price of the book alone.

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't like how often they frequently recommend cold calling as opposed to 3 betting,

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't frequently recommend it. They make a disclaimer saying that how they got to some of the situations they don't agree with. Brier used to make that disclaimer all the time in his column. Many of those hands are from questions from students or whatever. There's no real need to point it out every other hand, every mistake when you're basically just talking about one specific street.

[ QUOTE ]
Just recently, I was watching a 6 handed 75/150 game on Pacific Poker (I know that short handed is different, but 6 handed is not super shorthanded like say 3 handed and still has a lot of similarities to full games where a few players have folded) and I promise you, if you were playing Ciaffone/ Brier MLH style you would have been bet out of every single hand you played.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really even fair to compare 6 handed with full game in relation to the book. Since many of the starting situations are different as the starting hand values are quite a bit different. Not to mention, the game that book is talking about is alot different overall than a 6 handed game. Especially in todays climate.

You really have to realize what game this book is designed for. And yes, those games, and players that play like that, do still exist.

b

[JJay1231]

This book was written for full ring B&M casino's. I think it was released before online poker was even around, but dont quote me on it.

Personally I think its an excellent book.