400NL AT top pair reraised pot against a minraise from unknown

Vinetou · #1 11-05-2007, 09:33 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($532.55)
Button ($470.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Button raises to $12, Hero raises to $40, Button calls $28.

Flop: ($80) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $56, Button raises to $112,

I didn't play a lot of hands with villain, but he probably views me as aggressive. One hand I checkraised flop and then c/f turn. So he is pretty much unknown. Reraising preflop with ATo is my default play, some people might disagree with that. However, I don't know what his minraise on the flop means. Would he playback at me with a flush draw on an ace high board after I reraise and make a c bet? The only hands I am really worried about is AQ (maybe, he might 4 bet me with that?)AJ, A8, or A4.

I think this is a push or fold decision. I have a tough time folding top pair in HU, because most of the time it is good. So what do you do here?

BarryLyndon · #2 11-05-2007, 04:03 PM

I think your default play is fine except I find that when you know you don't have any FE preflop with your 3-bet with A10, you find yourself in bad spots on the flop more often than not. Poor FE preflop against button raises usually leads to ugly spots on the flop. As long as you think you have some FE, you're OK.

I think that minraises on the flop with flush draws are pretty rare, actually. I don't see them that much. More times than not this is a monster, a nervous ace, or air.

Against a monster, your done. Against a nervous ace, I don't see him calling your 4-bet. Maybe if he thinks you are on a flush draw, but I doubt it. Too soon to think that. Against air, he folds. I think he has a nervous ace here most of the time.

If you call, you are calling because you hope for a cheap showdown. Now you really have to know your opponent - will he check behind. If he does, great, because now I can either lead for value on a lot of rivers or check/call depending on how I feel. I think that calling here is OK assuming you will fold if he checks the turn and not fold if he bets most rivers giving you 3:1. Of course, if totally cool turn/rivers come out, you can lead for value yourself.

The other option is to check on the flop and call one street OOP if he bets I just think that option sucks though because what do you do on the turn?

Call the minraise and check the turn.

Barry

People_Mover · #3 11-05-2007, 05:04 PM

you bet 56 into 80 and he minraised. I hate this spot too, but I probably 1) make it 300 and obviously don't fold, Sucks because your OOP and you don't want to give a free card. I agree with Barry though that this is a scared ace or air almost always. People love to minraise with nothing especially in donkaments

BarryLyndon · #4 11-05-2007, 05:25 PM

I should add, and I'm surprised I didn't, that this is a sacred ace or air MORE OFTEN than a monster. My bad. I don't think this is a draw though and calling is kinduv ugly considering the pot will be ~200 and you are OOP. Ummm - I don't see what the value is in pushing and still see another street in value in making the call if in fact your opponent has air / weak ace. Reverse implied odds are kind of a killer, but what's the point of pushing this deep if he's drawing to three outs / runner runner?

Barry

PerDoom · #5 11-05-2007, 07:30 PM

I would totally advise against 3betting the flop without a better read or different flow in the match than unknown. 3betting will only lead to you getting it in horribly or against some flush draw, which isn't the best case scenario in this situation I don't believe.

I would have been nice to notice how quickly villain min raised the flop here. That is something I strongly advice in knowing the timing here as I usually see people that instamin raise the flop to be generally weak or at least weaker than if they took some time before raising. Although, I probably do overvalue timing tells.

I believe default is stack off here by calling and check/raising turn, but I do think it is close between check/folding and stacking off on the turn. But, it is early in the match, and if it is close I generally do like to find out some information on what he min raises the flop here with and how to react to this later.

So, I'd say check/call here and check/raise some non-club turn (folding a club turn). If goes check/check on turn, check/call river non-club and check/fold a club.

tmcdmck · #6 11-05-2007, 07:32 PM

i minreraise out of spite (no joke), but i find that is actually quite a cool line to take; you are not really trying to price anything out of the pot, and it is a fairly cheap and effective way of discovering whether or not you are beat, whilst quite probably getting maximum value from worse hands. gotta fight minraises with minraises and kick this guy's ass all the way back to fixed limit!

having said all that, minraising sucks, so i strongly suspect my post it flawed. as i stated at the beginning, i do it out of spite (i really really really hate being minraised, it insta tilts me, mega leak on my behalf), and i came up with the strategic justification after, so i doubt the move has any real value. god i love making plays out of spite though. probably worth it just for satisfaction value.

Vinetou · #7 11-05-2007, 07:40 PM

"I would have been nice to notice how quickly villain min raised the flop here."

He did it very fast.

creedofhubris · #8 11-05-2007, 07:48 PM

I've found a lot lot lot of people lately minraising with random stuff. So I'd just plan to get it in here.

Not a lot of room to play in a reraised pot with TP.

xSCWx · #9 11-05-2007, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've found a lot lot lot of people lately minraising with random stuff. So I'd just plan to get it in here.

Not a lot of room to play in a reraised pot with TP.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are likely to have random stuff calling is much better than shoving. If you shove the villain is forced to fold all weaker and will call you with hands that have you beat.

If you call you give a chance for his random hands to take another stab at the pot while minimizing your losses against hands that have you beat.

Vinetou · #10 11-05-2007, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've found a lot lot lot of people lately minraising with random stuff. So I'd just plan to get it in here.

Not a lot of room to play in a reraised pot with TP.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are likely to have random stuff calling is much better than shoving. If you shove the villain is forced to fold all weaker and will call you with hands that have you beat.

If you call you give a chance for his random hands to take another stab at the pot while minimizing your losses against hands that have you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would call the flop, c/c nonclub turn, c/f river? Or would you c/r turn?