a little discussion on 3 betting

[Speel Posher]

hey guys,

I have been trying this out for a while and i dont have it refined. I was hoping some people with bigger poker brains than me could help me out.

When i sit at a lot of tables(6 max) i look for a guy with a really high preflop raise percentage(normally 18 or above). it seems(from what i have found so far) that these guys are trying to understand the importance of being agressive but they cant handle being pushed around. either their ego gets in the way or they just want to maintain the image of being the bully.

I try to 3 bet these guys in position at least 3-4 times within the first half hour of being at the table. i dont mind if i lose a couple of pots because i am setting them up for later on when i quit doing it with air and i start doing it with real hands.

my questions are:

1. How often do you guys do this?
2. what kind of people/stats do you look at before you do it?


thanks a lot in advance for the help.

[Gonso]

It depends on what they do when you 3-bet. If they want to defend their raises hard, 3-betting air is kind of pointless and expensive (esp if you're defending from the blinds). If they go too far trying to be superbully, value crush them. Otherwise, you just get in a situation where you're to out-bully him. Variance goes up, and the other players at the table benefit.

Now, if you occasionally 3-bet in a reasonable manner, and he folds or 4-bets in a reasonable manner, then it's likely you're both playing well. He may be raising a lot because players at the table besides you might be on the weak side or something.

The problem is that a lot of players get aggravated with these guys and then try to go into superhero mode. They take it up on themselves to stop the table bully and save the day. There's no real point in that, let him do his thing. Otherwise, you wind up with a third of your chips in the pot facing an all-in from a maniac, holding AT on a Q95 board, trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

But yeah, going after bullies/maniacs can be profitable, but isn't it much better to sit around isolating tight-weak players instead? They're not very good and a lot less dangerous. I mean don't get me wrong, I'll put a lot of chips out there with a hand against a lagtard when I think I'm good. But that's not the same as just coming over the top of him light just because.

[Speel Posher]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on what they do when you 3-bet. If they want to defend their raises hard, 3-betting air is kind of pointless and expensive (esp if you're defending from the blinds). If they go too far trying to be superbully, value crush them. Otherwise, you just get in a situation where you're to out-bully him. Variance goes up, and the other players at the table benefit.

Now, if you occasionally 3-bet in a reasonable manner, and he folds or 4-bets in a reasonable manner, then it's likely you're both playing well. He may be raising a lot because players at the table besides you might be on the weak side or something.

The problem is that a lot of players get aggravated with these guys and then try to go into superhero mode. They take it up on themselves to stop the table bully and save the day. There's no real point in that, let him do his thing. Otherwise, you wind up with a third of your chips in the pot facing an all-in from a maniac, holding AT on a Q95 board, trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

But yeah, going after bullies/maniacs can be profitable, but isn't it much better to sit around isolating tight-weak players instead? They're not very good and a lot less dangerous. I mean don't get me wrong, I'll put a lot of chips out there with a hand against a lagtard when I think I'm good. But that's not the same as just coming over the top of him light just because.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are saying. Normally when i do this they call my three bets, if they 4 bet i am normally out of there(unless i have a decent hand)

I normally do it because they are trying to pick on the weak players with weak holdings and i think my A 10 is good. Also, if i do it a couple of times early with weak holdings, they will call my 3 bets later on in the session when i have AA or KK because they think i am three betting light. Too often at my previous stake any three bet meant AA or KK so everybody would fold(which is not good when i actually have one of those hands).

When i am doing this i am not trying to go into superhero mode. I am trying to send him a message to not bully my blinds or take away my position.

I am not a huge fan of continuing c-bets on the turn with absolute air because they could have a monster or they could just be making a hero call, but i am a fan of three betting them pre flop in position and taking down the majority of pots on the flop because it makes them uncomfortable and most opponents dont know what hands to call with in 3 bet pots.

I do it to a player off and on until they start playing back at me a lot and then i take a step back from 3 betting light and 3 bet with my made hands.

I respect your opinion gonso and hopefully this helps clear up more as to what i am trying to refine.