I am no longer tipping the dealers at CAZ until.......(long)

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Howard,

I don't blame you one bit for feeling the way you do. I also play a lot of hours of live poker in the SW (Sandia-ABQ) and nothing irritates me more that apathetic dealers/floor, considering the amount of money I pay in rake/tips in a year to sit in that seat. I would suggest that you look at this on a case by case basis though, instead of just not tipping anyone. Here is a personal example.

I'm in a big pot in a 10-20 game (this hand is 1/2 kill so its 15-30). I have an OESFD and have been putting in a lot of bets and raises. On the river its head's up, I miss my draw and fire as its the only way I can win, and could get high-carded if the other player is on a draw. The other player thinks...then finally calls. I flip my hand up immediately, the other player (very bad and very confused) nods his head and is about to muck. Guy next to him yells out "look he's only got 9-high you can't beat that?" Player is STILL trying to fold when guy next to him actually GRABS HIS ARM and says "just table your hand, he doesn't have anything." After all this convincing the guy finally tables his hand and shows 1 pair. During this whole episode the dealer is staring staight ahead like someone lobotomized her, and doesn't do or say anything. Another player and myself start yelling to the interfering player and the dealer "wtf its 1 player per hand!" she has no reaction whatsoever. I glare at her and say "I'm gonna charge you for that." It was over a $300 pot and I never tipped her again.

There are a number of dealers at my casino that do a good job, actually try to enforce the rules, and pay attention to what is going on. I have no problem tipping these people. I just as easily have no problem stiffing the dealers who are apathetic, and don't care at all about the integrity of the game. I tip these people little or nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of good dealers at CAZ in that they deal a quick, efficient game. There are even a few that DO try and stop players from flashing cards and will tell players not to talk about the hand in progress but, generally speaking, the culture of the games at CAZ has gotten to the point where if you tell people that it's not ok to say things like 'he's raising? I bet he has K-J for the nut straight' when they're not even in the hand they wonder why.

I'm not tipping ANY of them. The few who do a good job will get some extra money at Christmas time when I spread a good few bucks around the poker room each year.

[andyfox]

The primary responsibility for policing the game should rest with the players. When something like the incidents you describe happens, I will ask the dealer to tell the players "one player to a hand," or ask the players not to show cards to other players, or do not dicuss a hand while it's in progress, etc. The dealers are not well-trained, or trained at all, to deal with these types of things.

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
to quote the legend:

" MR. WHITE
I don't tip because society says I
gotta. I tip when somebody
deserves a tip. When somebody
really puts forth an effort, they
deserve a little something extra.
But this tipping automatically,
that sh-it's for the birds. As far
as I'm concerned, they're just
doin their job.
"

[/ QUOTE ]

That was Mr. Pink.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situation #1...Huge infraction


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? His buddy had already folded right? This is no big deal at all, basically nothing wrong happened at all. 2 and 3 are much worse.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

He hadn't actually folded yet but he was going to and I knew that no matter what his friend said he was going to muck his hand anyway. It's the information that they gave away that bothered me. A declaration like that tells the remaining players a great deal about the cards being held, a side bet, and, when the Ace hits the flop, the 'See?' What does that do to the play of the hand? And even if people don't think that this is much of a big deal it is SOME kind of deal and the dealer ought to say something.

How about if everybody just flashes all their hands around before mucking them and making side bets if they would've won or not? Didn't Party Poker institute side bets on the color of the flop? Maybe that's what poker needs to bring it into the modern age. Side bets.

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to quote the legend:

" MR. WHITE
I don't tip because society says I
gotta. I tip when somebody
deserves a tip. When somebody
really puts forth an effort, they
deserve a little something extra.
But this tipping automatically,
that sh-it's for the birds. As far
as I'm concerned, they're just
doin their job.
"

[/ QUOTE ]

That was Mr. Pink.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya the lame thing is I pasted that from the original script uploaded on IMDB. So I think in the original script mister white had that line (the originals are always really different from what happens in the movie). I'm with you, I always remember it as Buscemi saying it. And I'm glad they stuck with that

*not to derail to much*

[pocketpared]

AC/CT. I put lifetime bans on dealers on a case by case basis. One time, new to the game, I unintentionally sailed a card, barely went off the table, first time ever. After 12 years as a cardcounter, I can laugh at the variance in 10/20 - 20/40 LHE and 20/40 7cs, never losing my temper. Keeping the table happy, and all, too. The floor came over and asked the dealer "who threw the card on the floor?" She pointed to me and didn't inform the floor it was an accident. Lifetime ban. Another dealer shamelessly works the table for tips from the second she sits down until the second she leaves. When she came to our table from working a table at a tournament for deaf people, someone asked her what it was like. She said, "Much better than dealing to the normal idiots." I relate that story the second she starts working the table for tips. Lifetime ban too. Maybe the answer lies somewhere in between: the George Costanza tipping method. Put a dollar aside every time you win a pot, take a dollar away every time the dealer does something you don't like. Give them what's left, if any, when they leave.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who monitors and regulates these games? Whispering "CAZ supports collusion and refuses to enforce basic rules to protect the game's integrity" to a regulatory agency, with a nice paper trail of documented examples may help.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the right approach.

While I have never seen the on site gaming official at CA, I know one is on site, as that is the rules. Seek that person out and let them know. Nothing gets the card room more fired up than the gaming official questioning them. BTW, if you ask to talk to them, they have to get you in touch with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the gaming official actually works for the Tribe, not Casino Arizona - which is owned by the Tribe. So in essence there is no true impartial gaming official if that is true.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who monitors and regulates these games? Whispering "CAZ supports collusion and refuses to enforce basic rules to protect the game's integrity" to a regulatory agency, with a nice paper trail of documented examples may help.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the right approach.

While I have never seen the on site gaming official at CA, I know one is on site, as that is the rules. Seek that person out and let them know. Nothing gets the card room more fired up than the gaming official questioning them. BTW, if you ask to talk to them, they have to get you in touch with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not about to go nuclear on them. This is a matter of laxity, not of outright evil-doing. I know most of the floor people pretty well and I think they like and respect me (even if I do say so myself). I'm very friendly with many of the long-time dealers (including the one in #2 above). You ever see a floor called to make a ruling and get nothing but confusion from the dealer and players? I'm the guy that they look to to tell them what happened. That happens to me a lot. I point all this out because I think that sooner or later I'm going to get asked why I'm not tipping and I'm going to get asked by many of the better, long-time dealers and I'm hoping that that causes some soul searching amongst them. Together with having talked to the manager who runs the dealer meetings and various floor people I'm hoping that I'll have started the pot stirring. I'll see.

CAZ is still a good place to play. I recommend it. It's comfortable, friendly and has good action and a wide variety of limits. I just don't see why some effort can't be made to enforce even some small semblance of decent player behavior.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
The primary responsibility for policing the game should rest with the players. When something like the incidents you describe happens, I will ask the dealer to tell the players "one player to a hand," or ask the players not to show cards to other players, or do not dicuss a hand while it's in progress, etc. The dealers are not well-trained, or trained at all, to deal with these types of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be like that and I gave up. I'd have to be talking non-stop and I'd come off like the worst damn nit kill-joy in the state. I can't be the ONLY one doing it. There are any number of players who will agree with me but they won't say anything either for the same reasons. Then there are the better players who tell me I'm stupid for bringing any of this up because it may start the incredible dopes we are playing against to thinking. And they don't want any thinking going on in their games. Personally, I don't think that enforcing a couple of rules like this is going to hurt the games by educating the players.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
AC/CT. I put lifetime bans on dealers on a case by case basis. One time, new to the game, I unintentionally sailed a card, barely went off the table, first time ever. After 12 years as a cardcounter, I can laugh at the variance in 10/20 - 20/40 LHE and 20/40 7cs, never losing my temper. Keeping the table happy, and all, too. The floor came over and asked the dealer "who threw the card on the floor?" She pointed to me and didn't inform the floor it was an accident. Lifetime ban. Another dealer shamelessly works the table for tips from the second she sits down until the second she leaves. When she came to our table from working a table at a tournament for deaf people, someone asked her what it was like. She said, "Much better than dealing to the normal idiots." I relate that story the second she starts working the table for tips. Lifetime ban too. Maybe the answer lies somewhere in between: the George Costanza tipping method. Put a dollar aside every time you win a pot, take a dollar away every time the dealer does something you don't like. Give them what's left, if any, when they leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put *until* in the title because hopefully this won't be a lifetime ban. I am strongly opposed to those who do not tip dealers just because they want the money in their own pockets. It's also been difficult for me emotionally after only ONE day. I don't like doing it AT ALL and am hoping that I get asked why as soon as possible so my many friends will know that it's nothing personal. I'm trying to send a message and, if it gets heard, I start tipping again.