QQ mulitiway pot, river fold

joeyb · #1 12-22-2006, 05:03 PM

how is this? if it were HU, how do you play the river? the better just sat down, and the button is decent.

Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (10.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

WalkUpCondo · #2 12-22-2006, 05:27 PM

Well played. If HU on the river, checkcall seems appealing.

justkevin · #3 12-22-2006, 05:55 PM

I don't like check/folding the river here. You may have just induced the CO to bet his weaker pair.

I think check/call for 1 bet would be better.

Oink · #4 12-22-2006, 06:16 PM

I am between b/f and c/f and not really sure. But I do know that c/c is the last thing I want to do in this spot.

justkevin · #5 12-22-2006, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am between b/f and c/f and not really sure. But I do know that c/c is the last thing I want to do in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

C/f is right if we're behind 92% of the time here. I don't think we are.

What are we facing that b/f makes sense? Since nothing that beats us will fold, it must be for value. How many hands that we beat will call? How many hands beat us?

jgarrett32 · #6 12-22-2006, 07:13 PM

b/f the river is horrible. If u are going to invest 1 bet just c/c

bobhalford · #7 12-22-2006, 07:16 PM

I'd probably just bet/fold the river. No one says they have a K, and for all you know they're on Q8, AT, and a busted flush/straight draw.

Apanage · #8 12-22-2006, 07:32 PM

Check/fold river and it is not even close IMO.
But I guess you would have won the pot since you posted the hand.
HU I would have check/called without a doubt.

Gib · #9 12-22-2006, 07:45 PM

b/f river.

Oink · #10 12-22-2006, 07:55 PM

Check out rule 4 here
Gehrigs rules on river play

[ QUOTE ]
Since nothing that beats us will fold, it must be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon me, but... Well duh!!

The important thing about river play is not whether you are ahead or behind but how you maximize your payoff in each situation. In this case I will claim that both c/c and b/f are likely to cost you 1 BB when you are behind. So the important thing is what maximizes your payoff when you are ahead. In this case I will claim that villains are much much more likely to call 1 bet with a worse hand than they are to bet it for you. So bet is better when ahead and when behind c/c and bet are equally bad. All in all bet beats c/c.

To convince me that c/c is better than b/f you have to convince me that a) villains are more likely to bet with a worse hand than call. And b) It is likely that one of the villains will bluff raise you of your best hand. If you can convince me of this I will give in.

The stuff about "if you want to invest 1 bet then c/c" has nothing to do with maximizing your payoff. You want to choose the strategy that responds best to your opponenents likely choice of strategy for their likely hands.

The next question is then how to respond to a raise. Usually in multiway pots river raises means villain has the goods and a fold is in order.