something im doing almost always now...

[mike l.]

some of it's subconcious. people do different things. their nostrils flare, they feign loving the flop when the hate it, they fake hating the flop when they love it, they sigh and put the chips in really depressed like, they look away, they wait forever not wanting to bet and ask "he checked?" to make sure they arent missing an extra bet and to seem weak and hesitant, they grunt or groan or grimace, they sit upright, they bet really quick and sloppy, their hands shake, they tense up, their face gets red, the vein in their neck goes beep beep beep really fast (this is especially noticeable in younger players), they talk uncomfortably, they talk comfortably, they pretend not to be interested. all sorts of things. figuring out what each thing means takes a lot of time and is specific to each player. some players give off almost nothing or randomize to some extent because they play a lot of poker and betting the flop is just betting a flop it's something they do so often with so many types of flops that it doesnt excite them to have the nuts or to be bluffing with rags, it's just another bet. but a lot of mid limit players are high on the game and they play like their drunk, theyre lying but the truth is just underneath he surface and with a lot of time and practice looking at people you create a mental subconcious log of what each varying gesture and expression might most likely mean. i wish it were as simple as "i look for them to screw the top of an oreo, then i know theyre bluffing," but it's more subtle than that usually.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

am i playing perfectly?

[/ QUOTE ]


nope.

[mike l.]

heard you were getting crushed in the 1-2 bob, stick with it, it will turn around.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
heard you were getting crushed in the 1-2 bob, stick with it, it will turn around.

[/ QUOTE ]

i sure hope so. i'll be busto soon if it doesn't. maybe i just am not ready for that level of play.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
some of it's subconcious. people do different things. their nostrils flare, they feign loving the flop when the hate it, they fake hating the flop when they love it, they sigh and put the chips in really depressed like, they look away, they wait forever not wanting to bet and ask "he checked?" to make sure they arent missing an extra bet and to seem weak and hesitant, they grunt or groan or grimace, they sit upright, they bet really quick and sloppy, their hands shake, they tense up, their face gets red, the vein in their neck goes beep beep beep really fast (this is especially noticeable in younger players), they talk uncomfortably, they talk comfortably, they pretend not to be interested. all sorts of things. figuring out what each thing means takes a lot of time and is specific to each player. some players give off almost nothing or randomize to some extent because they play a lot of poker and betting the flop is just betting a flop it's something they do so often with so many types of flops that it doesnt excite them to have the nuts or to be bluffing with rags, it's just another bet. but a lot of mid limit players are high on the game and they play like their drunk, theyre lying but the truth is just underneath he surface and with a lot of time and practice looking at people you create a mental subconcious log of what each varying gesture and expression might most likely mean. i wish it were as simple as "i look for them to screw the top of an oreo, then i know theyre bluffing," but it's more subtle than that usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I think I get it. Nice post.

It was an intersting couple of days to see Surf playing live for the first few times. Since I was trying to help him close up his tellbox I was really focusing in on the physical aspect of the game. It was initially pretty dramatic watching him especailly since I know how solid and experienced an online player he is with over a million hands logged. His nervous energy and inabilty to handle chips really gave away a ton of information. Pretty intersting how quickly he was able to improve but your post also reminds me of how much I have to work on being more of a combo online/live player.

[Bill King]

i think the idea is cool mike l, but like a few have said here that i think dark betting is only good against people who think, against people who dont think, all it does is destroy your image and get people thinking about why you would do that and what you might have.. just MO

[mike l.]

for the record i think ive decided to stop always dark betting or dark checking against one opponent: howmany. he's made good adjustments.

[HOWMANY]

Here is a situation where I think that doing something in the dark is a mistake from yesterday:

Some random guy raises button, I call bb with 54o black.

Flop: 68Q all hearts
I c/r he calls

Turn: heart
I bet he calls

River: whatever
I check he checks and 3 of hearts is good

I didn't check dark or anything in the first place, but I think by donking this flop I would have had a chance to actually win the hand or save 1 small bet at least if he was going to call. By c/r he will feel he has to call because people live are idiots and can't possibly fold for 1 bet on the flop when they've already put 1 in.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a situation where I think that doing something in the dark is a mistake from yesterday:

Some random guy raises button, I call bb with 54o black.

Flop: 68Q all hearts
I c/r he calls

Turn: heart
I bet he calls

River: whatever
I check he checks and 3 of hearts is good

I didn't check dark or anything in the first place, but I think by donking this flop I would have had a chance to actually win the hand or save 1 small bet at least if he was going to call. By c/r he will feel he has to call because people live are idiots and can't possibly fold for 1 bet on the flop when they've already put 1 in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think he folds the 3 ball if you donk? Don't be absurd.

[mike l.]

i think your main mistake in this hand was c/ring the flop followed not as closely by calling p/f.