cold-calling vs. 3-betting preflop with pp (1010+)

[monkover]

Two weeks ago I went on holiday to Italy and withdrew all my monies from party. When I came back and was browsing 2p2 I decided it would be a good idea not to redeposit again for about another month but do a month worth of intensive studying instead.
Thus far I have come across many concepts I had never been aware of before.
One of those I found in one of Pokey´s more recent posts. It´s actually pretty simple but imo it will be highly +ev for me!

Calling vs. raising with big pairs (1010+) in position

This concept probably isn’t new to most of the posters that have been around for a long time and thinking about the game quite a lot.


1. Playing against weak-tight nits (e.g. 12/6)

Let´s assume we are in position. Villain is on the CO and raises to 4bb we’re on the button. Hero is next to act on the button with JJ. What is the correct play? Villain has a very tight preflop raising range and more than 50% of the time an overcard is going to flop this apparently makes our hand quite vulnerable b/c villain will very often hold two overcards to our 10s and the pot is only going to become big if
- villain hits tp and we hit a set or
- 1 overcard flops and we call a bet on the flop

and we don´t have the implied odds to play our pocket Js against a tight nit so we just better take the pot down right now or hope to win 24 bb by cbetting on the flop. (If villain calls we prob have to give up.)
so raise the [censored] up! So far so good this has always been my default play.

2. Playing against loose + aggressive donks (e.g. 45/25/6)

We are yet again in position and villain raises from MP, CO folds and we are left to act on the button with QQ. Here my play deviates from my “old” default play. I always used to re-raise a hand like this one even in position. But in this case I prefer a call now. Why? Actually pretty apparent too: villain’s prelop raising range is huge: something like 25% = "any pair, any suited broadway, any ace, any suited connectors 54s+, KQo" ( copied that from pokey´s hand reading guide J) So we can say we definitely are ahead of villain´s range here!
Post flop you can expect get a lot of action from villain if you like the flop. Sometimes you will have to fold but the majority of the time you´ll have the better hand and villain is going to do the betting for you.

How would this change for pocket 10s? I wouldn´t advise only calling preflop b/c the 10s are way more vulnerable than our QQ and prob can´t take the heat villain is going to give you, so raise it up!

3. Playing against calling stations (e.g. 40/3/0,7)

These players are usually the most fun J when they start betting you know you can fold all but your strongest holdings thus they are ideal victims for the “calling preflop with big hands thingy”
An example a calling station calls in mp you wake up in the CO with KK calling obviously is the best option. If you raised preflop this usually even alarms the b average station. I found out that many stations are afraid of preflop raises but will call you down very lightly in limped pots so rasing preflop is prob not a good idea. So just limp behind and try to make the maximum post flop. Sometimes you´ll find calling stations though that call your raise or 3 bet preflop and still decide to call you down. This is a very valuable read.


So the main factors you have to think about when deciding whether to call or to raise are your opponents limping-/ openraisingranges and reads you have on them, how vulnerable your hand is(1010 obv more than KK) and your position (in all my examples hero was in position)




I hope I got everything right so far (would otherwise really suck!) but if anything is wrong please tell me in this thread.
Cheers 4 now monkover

[Reef]

you probably put a lot of thought into it, but this post is just way too long to read

[monkover]

hmm that sucks but mabe some1 is going to read it...

[monkover]

no comments? (hidden bump)

[BishopsFinger]

man youre still advocating smoothcalling a LAGRO players pf raise with qq IP as standard.

youre also still advocating smoothcalling A LIMP with kk in late position against a calling station as standard.

this is terrible man it really is.

this is basically the same as your first post. you really need to rethink this stuff man.

[pmw]

I think one factor that you forgot are the blinds. I am playing 10 nl right now and if i dont reraise i am pretty sure that i have to play a multiway pot.
I reraise my opponents toisolate your them, you narrow their range down and to build up the pot.
I also think that your table image and the table dynamics play huge roll. The only reason to cold call is to mix up your game

[monkover]

sorry guys I posted the wrong version of the thread but now I somehow can´t edit it One of the mods please delete the first part
Maybe some of you have already read my post this morning but I changed quite a few things b/c I talked to pokey about it and he said it wasn´t detailed enough.
So thanks again for reading over it!
Two weeks ago I went on holiday to Italy and withdrew all my monies from party. When I came back and was browsing 2p2 I decided it would be a good idea not to redeposit again for about another month but do a month worth of intensive studying instead.
Thus far I have come across many concepts I had never been aware of before.
One of those I found in one of Pokey´s more recent posts. It´s actually pretty simple but imo it will be quite a bit +ev for me!

Calling vs. raising with big pairs (1010+) in position

This concept probably isn’t new to most of the posters that have been around for a long time and thinking about the game quite a lot.


1. Playing against weak-tight nits (e.g. 12/6)

Let´s assume we are in position. Villain is on the CO and raises to 4bb we’re on the button. Hero is next to act on the button with JJ. What is the correct play? These villains always look for a reason to fold hands that are not the nuts/close to the nuts. What is a likely post flop scenario?

- villain hits TPTK and we hit a set or (Imo the only case where the pot could get big but we still my not even stack villain, remember TPTK is not the nutz)
- overcard(s) flops villain bets out -> we have to fold
- overcard flops villain checks, we bet, villain c/rai -> we fold
- overcard flops we rep it villain folds

So there is just no likely scenario where we are going to make much money against a weak tight nit. Playing against these types of villains (as long as they aren´t playing back at you) doesn´t require any good holdings b/c they play fit or fold. Just cbet them to death. The only difficulty against these villains is finding out when they are playing back at you.
So RAISE the [censored] up!
So far so good…

2. “I got a good hand and play it like the nuts” nits (e.g. also 12/6/5)

The stats of these players might look just as the ones of the villains just described. You´ll have to figure out which is which at the table. If you see a lot of money going into the pot post flop and the one shows up on the river with QQ on AK825 board chances are villain fits into this category. So these nits are very tight preflop as the 12/6 suggests and think their strong holding is the damn nuts but play their hands very fast.
This time we are going to assume same scenario as above hero has 1010. What is hero supposed to do?
As everybody on here knows very well there is just no way you are going to get this villain to flop preflop so there is just no such a thing as folding equity against these guys so re-raising just unnecessarily builds a big pot when you might very well be behind and villain is glad to 4-bet all in b/c he loves his hand.
So there just is no point in raising. This is a call. If you hit your hand villain is going to go broke in an unraised pot, too.



3. Playing against maniacs (e.g. 45/25/6)

The problem with maniacs is that they play really aggressively and will put a lot of pressure on you, trying to make you lay down your JJ on a K73r board. Against this type of villains re-raising preflop always is a good idea b/c it makes your postflop play a ton easier.
An example:
25NL folded to maniac (20$) in the CO who makes his standard raise to 1.25$. Hero(30$) has JJ on the button re-raises to 4$, maniac calls. pot: 8$
Flop: 274r
Maniac leads out for 7$, hero raises to 16$

Can you see how much the re-raise preflop made the flop raise easier for hero? It built a pot and the manic tried to steal the pot and it was easy to raise him all in. If hero had only called preflop there would be 2.5$ in the pot and the post flop game would have got a ton more difficult. So raise it!

4. Playing against calling stations (e.g. 40/3/0,7)

These players are a piece of cake to play against. They are really passive, like to play the sheriff and call you down just to see if you were bluffing.
Against these players you default play is very easy: Take them to valuetown! 3-bet preflop and let them pay every street till the river just to see that their bottom pair is no good. Raising against them preflop builds a pot and gives you the advantage to make bigger bets on all streets. If this villain starts to bet immediately muck your hand. The overpair usually is no good.


So the main factors you have to think about when deciding whether to call or to raise are your opponents limping-/ openraisingranges and reads you have on them, how vulnerable your hand is(1010 obv more than KK) and your position (in all my examples hero was in position)




I hope I got everything right so far and it helped you guys a bit although it´s very basic.
Cheers 4 now monkover

[AshleyC]

I quite like the thought that you have put into this. However, I rarely smooth-call with big pairs.

It also depends on the stack size of the raising villan, if he has ~ 70bb or less I am much more likely to smooth call in position, as it will be easier for him to hopefully get pot committed to his hopefully 1 pair hand. I'd never smooth call against a fellow 100b + stack.

If you want to mix up your play and cant think of a way to do this Harrington in his book advocates calling with say red aces ( 1/6th of time get them) or same colour aces (red / black aces - 1/3). Similarly you could obv do this with other pairs. This is a good way to truly randomize when you do it.