Limon et al. Let's talk properly about minraises!!!!

[Dan Bitel]

OK, every1, please take your flaming elsewhere. This thread is for a proper discussion of minraise strategy.

Personally, I think there are VERY few spots where a minraise is effective. The times I DO like it, are for value with a monster vs a moran, as a cheap bluff in a rr pot, minraise/folding rivers for thin value, and to get value preflop when you're not giving villain set value. As I'm sure most of you have realised, limon has incorperated minraising into his game to form a sort of strategy (for lack of a better word).

Pros of minraises:

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Gets value of marginal holdings
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Screws with TAGs heads
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Is a very cheap bluff
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Can buy you a very cheap card in position
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Buys information at a low price
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Can be used as a value bluff (as shown in this thread)



Cons of minraising:

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] If you have a good hand, it sets a cheap price for your opponent to outdraw you
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Re-opens the betting to get pushed off your draw
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Sets a cheap price for your opponent to call you when you are bluffing
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Seems fishy, so players might 3bet you light so the information you gain uisn't too valuable
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Bloats the pot when you do it with an average holding (as so many fish do)

If any1 can add more pros and cons, PLEASE DO. As I only spent a few mins coming up with these.

One BIG problem I find with minraises is that basically, you are either doing it for value or as a bluff, and if you're doing it for value, your opponent has really good odds and if you're doing it as a bluff, then you're making it VERY tempting for oppoennts to continue. Here is a thread where I actually LIKE a minraise (for reasons I explained in the thread). However, you'll see a lot of very good posters/players say that they will call a minraise and expect a lot of opponents to call a minraise with JJ/TT etc.

I think that opponents calling your minraise bluffs with a lot of hands on the flop is a double edged sword. On the plus, it means you can 2 barrel and have got "value" from your bluff, onthe other hand, you might not always want to 2 barrel, you are unsure of his range for calling flop and it commits you to making a pretty damn big pot with air.

So here ESPECIALLY is where I would like some of your imput limon. As part of your minraising strategy, do you find yourself 2/3 barelling a lot? Or do you minraise at 1st primarilly for value, and then start to use it for bluffs more as your opponents adjust? How do you counteract the fact it gives your opponents lovely odds?

Limon, I know it might seem I'm "calling you out" a bit in this thread, but I can assure you I'm not. You seem to be the person around here that knows the most about minraises, how to use them and how to handle them and so I'm simply trying to learn for my benefit and for every1's around here from some1 on a subject where you seem to know a lot more than us.

With that in mind, I'm going to take 2 threads where you suggested to minraise, where I think it looked pretty bad spots for doing so, but you never really fully explained yourself, and i was wondering if (when you get the time and as well as contributing to this thread if possible), you could expand on your reasons for liking the minraise in that spot.

Here you say that you like minraise 4betting/folding. Now are the game conditions that you play in really such that you don't have enough equity vs his range to call a shove? And why do you want to give odds to any PP to call for set value?

Here you say that you like a min c/r, bet small on turn/river then fold to a shove on any street. Well, if your min c/r is caled on the flop, the pot will be $71.5 with just $63 behind. Where exactly do you think you're getting away once you've led the turn? So my problem there is that if villain has AJ+, you're making it VERY easy for him to stack you (he has to be pretty stupid to 3bet the flop). this is a clear spot of wheere I HATE a minraise, as it build a big pot with a bad hand.


Anyway, I know this thread is rather jumbled, but if every1 could please post there thoughts here and keep flaming away, it would be most appriciated.

Thanks

[Freelancer]

I started looking at my game recently and trying to find spots where a minraise is the correct move. This is all done while playing (only 4 tables ftw) and so far I came up with a single situation where I thought a minraise had merit.

In this situation I know villain fairly good (I had a good 'feel' and I know he's tricky and good), I usually fold this preflop but decided to call this because I thought I could outplay him postflop. On the flop I was planning to float him but the most interesting part is probably the turn. Anyway the hand (a decent example of using a minraise as a bluff IMO);

Hero is OTB
Villin is UTG

Effective stacks: 200$

Dealt to hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop;
Villain raises to 7$
Hero calls

Flop (~15$)
4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 12$
Hero calls 12$

Turn (~39$)
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain bets 32$
Hero raises to 64$
Villain folds...


At this point I was 80% sure that villain was double barreling me, normally I would just give up but with the perfect turn card for a double barrel and the right villain I decided to try something different.



No idea if this will help anyone since this hand is very much based on reads and feel. But its one hand where the pot was big enough that even a minraise can commit villain without committing me (if he calls he has to expect a push) so it looks very scary without actually costing me that much.

[poppingit]

Good post dan, i will have a think about a few things and make a post. Just letting you know that the first thread link doesnt work though.

[Dan Bitel]

fixed

[jk3a]

Here is a blind vs. blind situation where I thought a minraise was ultra-effective. Villian was unknown and open completed. Hero checked Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in BB.

FLOP:Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
villian pots, i call

TURN:5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villian 1/2 pots, i call

RIVER: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villian 1/2 pots, i minraise, he calls 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


I am reasonably sure he mucks to a bigger raise most of the time and the rest of you should be able to confirm that. In small-medium sized pots, the minraise is extremely effective at milking value from all but the best opponents small-medium strength hands. Ya heard me!!

[poppingit]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a blind vs. blind situation where I thought a minraise was ultra-effective. Villian was unknown and open completed. Hero checked Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in BB.

FLOP:Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
villian pots, i call

TURN:5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villian 1/2 pots, i call

RIVER: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villian 1/2 pots, i minraise, he calls 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


I am reasonably sure he mucks to a bigger raise most of the time and the rest of you should be able to confirm that. In small-medium sized pots, the minraise is extremely effective at milking value from all but the best opponents small-medium strength hands. Ya heard me!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Also requires a pretty weak player to make that call there on the end but i see your point in this specific situation especially because of the blind vs blind battle

[Jigsaws]

One quote that really stuck out to me:

[ QUOTE ]
when your getting people to constantly commit against you but you have the final decision youre at a huge advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that I have the toughest decisions when I'm facing a bet that puts me in a push or fold situation. Minraises can be an effective tool for that.

Two hands where I tried to put my opponents to the decision. First hand is against SABR42.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($286.90)
SB ($132.85)
BB ($444.05)
UTG ($221.50)
MP ($155.30)
Hero ($478.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, BB folds.

This hand is against some regular.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB ($186.90)
BB ($98)
Hero ($369.30)
MP ($255.05)
CO ($532.20)
Button ($204.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $8, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $78</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: $132

[JunkTrunk]

Minraising. When?

PREFLOP

UTG &amp; MP:

Hardly ever. I will minraise sometimes when I can expect with great frequency that 2 opponents will call any normal size raise and these opponents will have position against me postflop. In other words, having 2 loose passive directly to my left. The hands that I minraise will be PPs less than 99, suited connectors and suited Aces. These situations are rare, though.

CO:

Tight button and small stacks in the blinds when I have a hand I want to raise but can't call an AI from one of the blinds. Example. I have 98s. Button is nitty. SB and BB have 30 BB stacks or less. They are looking to shove with any 2 and my 98s can't handle a 3-bet if I make the standard raise. So, I minraise and play poker postflop.

Button:

Same example as above would apply. I'm looking to play almost anything because I'm in position but I don't want to risk being set AI versus a shortstack. So, instead of raising to 4BBs I will minraise.

Also, against larger stacked blinds if I have raised preflop in last 2 hands (or with great frequency in the last orbit) I will minraise with some of my lesser, yet playable holdings.

SB:

If I have a tightish player in the BB and it's folded to me I will test him out by minraising. Often he has the 'check-fold' button preclicked and I know that I will be able to steal with any 2 cards just by minraising.

If there are 2 or more loose limpers who are unlikely to fold to a standard raise I will minraise a boatload of hands in the SB. These include 22-88, SCs, suited broadways, and suited Aces. I'm looking to flop large and the 'double pot' from my preflop raise makes it much easier to get AI postflop. Also, it allows us to raise preflop and check-fold flops for cheap, which provides a nice balance for loose aggressive play.

BB:

22-88, SCs, suited broadways, and suited Aces after multiple loose limpers.


This is just preflop. I'll try to include some postflop examples.

[JunkTrunk]

POSTFLOP

MINRAISE THE NITS:

Minraising can be a very effective strategy against nitty players. There is a certain species of player that will never 3-bet bluff (this includes nits) and will rarely 3-bet semi-bluff. It's effective to minraise flops versus these players when they lead into you if you have a hand that is good but not likely to improve much. Let's say you have KK and raise preflop. Your opponent calls in the BB. Flop is T62r. He leads for $6 into an $8 pot. Minraise him. His 3-bet means set. If he just calls you can value bet his Tx/JJ/QQ on the last 2 streets.

Even if the pot is 3-way on this flop you can still minraise the nit.

[Thremp]

Jigsaws,

I no likey either. Though I assume QTs UTG is to change it up and not your usual range. First I don't like doing that in position. Maybe call and C/R AI on most flops? Whatever you do with QQ+.