Hero experiments w/ reraising KJs

[fitnessfreak]

personally i dont like 3betting either of these hands in this instance against an unknown. i would be more likely to do it vs a laggier player obviously as he is more likely trying to isolate and/or pick up the dead money. and i agree that against a spewy posftflop player who likes to call pf light and shove over cbets, then in that specific instance KJ has more value.

but either way, i prefer folding pf. KJ is a bad hand to play oop in rr'd pot. unless you have a good reason to be doing this v the specific opponent i think folding is the best play.

[fees]

i do this all the time, its pretty std ,espeically to someone isolating IP

to the people saying folding>raising are you assuming that this is the first time you've ever done this? If you do this with any kind of frequency this play becomes better .. for example..



saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($90.50)
MP ($238)
CO ($284.25)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($203)</font>
SB ($162.75)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($251.10)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $28</font>, Button calls $19.

Flop: ($55) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $40</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $177 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $137.


Hero has Kd Kc .
Button has As 8s


Just some slag guy.. so no his calling range doesnt dominate us, and our hand can flop well so the 77-1010 that he'll call with as well can be outran and possibly gotten some decent thin value out of .. also we're sooted so we can push the flop if we make some sort of draw

[SilentNoise]

isn't OP implying that the CO raiser IS laggy by the [ QUOTE ]
KJs seems too good to fold against likely positional raise

[/ QUOTE ] (the position raise part?) ...or atleaast laggy from that position in the table.

obviously id rather have a read or atleast some stats like 35/25 or something.

[ QUOTE ]
and i agree that against a spewy posftflop player who likes to call pf light and shove over cbets, then in that specific instance KJ has more value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't everybody do this nowadays? Atleast 200nl+? If you agree that KJ has more value than 79s against a player who plays back light preflop and postflop...then when is 97s better? When somebody DOESNT play back light preflop and postflop? If thats the case then surely your cards aren't of that much importance (obviously its bad doing it with 72o though)...since you are just taking advantage of the fact that he folds alot preflop, and folds alot postflop. Do those times you flop a draw really make a difference? Isn't the profitability of that play against somebody who doesn't play back much , more about him folding too much to cbets and whatever...instead of being able to flop straights+combo draws against him? If you think hes only calling preflop pretty tight, then surely his calling range crushes 97s just as much if not more than KJs?

Heres some stoves from some pretty tight calling ranges;

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.088% 62.69% 00.40% 59036586 377288.00 { 88+, AQs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 36.912% 36.51% 00.40% 34385558 377288.00 { KcJc }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.538% 72.24% 00.30% 72983689 298401.00 { 88+, AQs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 27.462% 27.17% 00.30% 27445445 298401.00 { 9d7d }


So basically, against even a tight 3bet calling range, KJ has more equity, which to me seems like yet another point why i would rather have KJs rather than 97s


I didn't put AK in there because i think most players 4bet that the majority of the time.

[fees]

oh also it sets them up for later when u have big pairs

[Dan Bitel]

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I'd rather do it with 97s

[/ QUOTE ] I hate ppl that say this

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Why? It's probably true for a lot of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard a single good bit of reasoning why, and silent noise here has argued perfectly why KJs is better IMO

[Suigin406]

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[ QUOTE ]
folding &gt; raising &gt; calling

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, too many limpers for me to be isoing with this hand

[Jay Riall]

If isolator is someone like me then this is ok. Obviously if isolator is someone like Neilsio then this is terrible because he is probably limping behind with hands like TT, AQ etc.

[olof86]

[ QUOTE ]
i do this all the time, its pretty std ,espeically to someone isolating IP

to the people saying folding&gt;raising are you assuming that this is the first time you've ever done this? If you do this with any kind of frequency this play becomes better .. for example..


[/ QUOTE ]

Your stated exmple is not even close to being the same sorta situation?

[RepulseMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
isn't OP implying that the CO raiser IS laggy by the [ QUOTE ]
KJs seems too good to fold against likely positional raise

[/ QUOTE ] (the position raise part?) ...or atleaast laggy from that position in the table.

obviously id rather have a read or atleast some stats like 35/25 or something.

[ QUOTE ]
and i agree that against a spewy posftflop player who likes to call pf light and shove over cbets, then in that specific instance KJ has more value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't everybody do this nowadays? Atleast 200nl+? If you agree that KJ has more value than 79s against a player who plays back light preflop and postflop...then when is 97s better? When somebody DOESNT play back light preflop and postflop? If thats the case then surely your cards aren't of that much importance (obviously its bad doing it with 72o though)...since you are just taking advantage of the fact that he folds alot preflop, and folds alot postflop. Do those times you flop a draw really make a difference? Isn't the profitability of that play against somebody who doesn't play back much , more about him folding too much to cbets and whatever...instead of being able to flop straights+combo draws against him? If you think hes only calling preflop pretty tight, then surely his calling range crushes 97s just as much if not more than KJs?

Heres some stoves from some pretty tight calling ranges;

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.088% 62.69% 00.40% 59036586 377288.00 { 88+, AQs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 36.912% 36.51% 00.40% 34385558 377288.00 { KcJc }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.538% 72.24% 00.30% 72983689 298401.00 { 88+, AQs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 27.462% 27.17% 00.30% 27445445 298401.00 { 9d7d }


So basically, against even a tight 3bet calling range, KJ has more equity, which to me seems like yet another point why i would rather have KJs rather than 97s


I didn't put AK in there because i think most players 4bet that the majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bottom line is you really really want everyone to fold and if not, well at least you've got a little something [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[The Hag]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather do it with 97s

[/ QUOTE ] I hate ppl that say this

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It's probably true for a lot of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard a single good bit of reasoning why, and silent noise here has argued perfectly why KJs is better IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you and silent noise are both missing the point, it isn't about equity at all.....