Benifits of the straddle

[Lagtastic]

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I average about 6bb/hr live. Putting 2bb into the pot on every orbit (in addition to my blinds) where I will usually fold to any raise, and play OOP in any unraised pot seems like a great way to put a serious dent in my win rate. I just don't think any "loosening up" of the table from my straddle will compensate for the 6bb+/hr extra money that I put in blind from bad position.

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.

Also, metagame is overrated at most live games. The solid regulars won't be fooled. The gambling LAGs and social calling stations won't notice.

Better metagame considerations might be calling with a wider range than expected on the button so you can show down 84s on a 744 flop when you stack some guy with AA in EP who didn't raise enough preflop relative to your effective stacks. Or raising UTG with 78s (planning to fold to a reraise). Or whatever... Straddling blind isn't as good as other means of mixing up your game for "metagame" purposes vs people with whom you play regularly.

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i agree

[armen13]

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

[NL Rounder]

The only area where I've seen the Mississippi (button) straddle permitted is in Tunica...and what I witnessed was that the button had first priority to straddle, then the cut-off, etc....all the way down to the traditional straddle position UTG.

[Dromar]

Obviously putting in a blind raise is bad.

And in LHE, it's even worse, since most bad players (at low/mid stakes at least) call too often, and the extra money in the pot from the straddle makes their calls "less bad," or even good on occasion.

However, in specific circumstances, straddling can be profitable (although I suppose this can be said about most things).

[Lagtastic]

so i tried to introduce the mississippi straddle in my home game...lets just say it didnt go over too well.

[mr.spam]

Well, at home games I attend, I usually do it a couple of times at the beginning, just to set the tone. People always catch up with this and I find it a whole lot easier to play when someone straddles...

[Mook]

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meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

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Really? What are some of your "other ways" for doing this when, as you say, you have a hand? Because if I've seen you for more than a couple of orbits and you're playing ABC 22/17-type poker, believe you me, I'm not putting dime one into a pot you've "juiced" without a very good reason.

Even for your average non-2+2'er, first impressions are extremely powerful at live tables. If the first thing you do is sit down and blind straddle a few pots, people are going to tag you as a "maniac" or an "action junkie" even if you play 22/17 the rest of the time. And you're almost certainly going to get many times more action on your great hands than someone who doesn't see a flop for the first hour and then tries to come out guns blazing.

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the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

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And my point being that in some games - not all games, not even many games, but in more than you'd think - "spicing things up" can yield an order of magnitude more EV than you're losing through the straddle. Refusing to take advantage of these situations when they pop up simply because you're standing on principle borders on criminal.

Mook

[Lagtastic]

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meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

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Really? What are some of your "other ways" for doing this when, as you say, you have a hand? Because if I've seen you for more than a couple of orbits and you're playing ABC 22/17-type poker, believe you me, I'm not putting dime one into a pot you've "juiced" without a very good reason.

Even for your average non-2+2'er, first impressions are extremely powerful at live tables. If the first thing you do is sit down and blind straddle a few pots, people are going to tag you as a "maniac" or an "action junkie" even if you play 22/17 the rest of the time. And you're almost certainly going to get many times more action on your great hands than someone who doesn't see a flop for the first hour and then tries to come out guns blazing.

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the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

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siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

the holes in this post are so large i shouldn't even need to comment....how do you juice the pot without straddling...are you serious? and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

[CurryLover]

Some of the nitty replies here are only thinking of poker on a simplistic level.

All this "I don't play poker to have fun, so don't care if the game has a fun atmosphere or not. I only play to make money" is just totally the wrong way of thinking about being a winning poker player. A 'fun atmosphere' where the players are wanting to gamble allows you to make much more money than a tight, unfriendly, cut-throat game where every player is wearing sunglasses and tanking on every decision. Sometimes doing little things - like straddling - to promote 'fun' in a game will lead to your EV increasing.

I get frustrated when I see some of these young kids come and play live. They have mainly played online and they read 2+2. They think they are maximising their EV at all times, and look down their noses at other players. And they do all sorts of things which actually make the game they are playing in much less profitable. They wear sunglasses. They dwell on EVERY decision. They talk to their friends about poker at the table, using terms like 'EV' or 'fold equity'. They insist on every little technicality, like calling a string bet when a half-drunk fish does not put his chips in quite correctly. And they do all these things thinking they are maximising their profit. But by making the game less fun and more cut-throat they are actually reducing their profit.

Meanwhile, an old time pro is winning twice as much as them and has been doing so for years. He seems to get on with everyone, especially the weak players. He tries to avoid pulling people up on minor technicalities because he realises this spoils the flow of the game and antagonises the weak players. He does everything he can to prevent the game having a cut-throat atmosphere because he knows that this will reduce his profits. And he sometimes straddles.

The young internet kids may see him occasionally make the odd play that is 'technically incorrect', but he'll continue to win more in the live games than they will. One of the reasons is that he understands that a winning poker player is in the entertainment business, and that the PR stuff is really important. Live poker is not like the internet. Games have to be nurtured and fed in order to keep them as good, profitable games.

Straddling may not normally be 'profitable' in and of itself (although Mississipi straddling from the button has to be different). But it sometimes can be profitable in a variety of indirect ways: It stimulates action in future hands; It helps promote a friendly, gambling game; It encourages others to straddle; It prevents you getting an overly tight image etc.

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

[Rek]

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

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And what are you basing your whole post on? Some wily old pro who knows how to mix his game up well? Nobody is arguing the fact that you should not mix your play up and be unpredictable. That is all part of being a good live player. It just seems that you and some others cannot accept you can do this without a straddle.

The question was "benefits of the straddle" not "benefits of mixing up your game". A straddle is putting money in blind. How can that possibly be +EV. Yes you will win some pots by being lucky but long term it cannot be a profitable play IMHO.