Monster Draw played passively on flop

[One Outer]

I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[KitCloudkicker]

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I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

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awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

[surfdoc]

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I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

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awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

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It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

[James.]

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I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

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awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

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It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

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hey surfdoc,

what's your sb/bb raising range in a loose, live game with multiple(at least 4) limpers to you?

[neurotiq]

I'd bet this flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You have an open-ended straight flush draw here and five players behind you. I can't think of a situation where betting on the come is more appropriate.

[slavic]

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I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

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hey surfdoc,

what's your sb/bb raising range in a loose, live game with multiple(at least 4) limpers to you?

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In LP I like the raise and if the hand was one tick up I like the raise. T9 just makes too many second best hands. The other problem is that you tie yourself into this pot if you even get the tinyest bit of it. This early equity advantage seems like it could lead to some larger equity mistakes later.

[James.]

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In LP I like the raise and if the hand was one tick up I like the raise. T9 just makes too many second best hands. The other problem is that you tie yourself into this pot if you even get the tinyest bit of it. This early equity advantage seems like it could lead to some larger equity mistakes later.

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so if you're in LP you like the raise? are you saying in LP you don't get "tied to the pot"? i hear people say this alot when it comes to raising certain types of holdings preflop(usually these suited connectors). is that ever a reason to not raise AK? because you might have to stay in with a gutshot or backdoor flush draw? if you make money on the raise, you make money on the raise.

fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does. remember i'm advocating raising this hand in loose, live passive games. that means alot of times you peel for a small bet and it's easy to fold second best hands because alot of opponents don't bluff. also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

[Rico Suave]

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fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does.

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But James, it is would most likely be wrong to fold 2nd pair once the pot gets so large. So I am not following you on how discipline negates the effect of tying you to the pot.

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also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

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Raising so we have the odds to chase later? (I know you said this was thin)

FWIW, I don't mind the raise. I certainly see the value in it in the game described. But I also see how our bad position can keep us from maximizing the value from our hand. And I see how bloating the pot will often make their postflop play correct, and tie us to the pot very often (bascially negating postflop skill edge). So is the value gained by pushing our preflop equity greater than the postflop edge we give up? I have no idea. If my hand is AKs, then the answer is obvious. If my hand KTo, then the answer is obvious. But T9s....i dunno.

--Rico

[JJH3984]

Raising T9s in this spot depends a lot on table conditions we don't know about. Since OP said that the game was the second lowest in the room, I'm going to assume that raising is probably right.

[James.]

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fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does.

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But James, it is would most likely be wrong to fold 2nd pair once the pot gets so large. So I am not following you on how discipline negates the effect of tying you to the pot.

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sure you'll often have the odds to chase trips or two pair. i was referring to showing down a hand like middle pair because of the pot size.

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also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

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Raising so we have the odds to chase later? (I know you said this was thin)

FWIW, I don't mind the raise. I certainly see the value in it in the game described. But I also see how our bad position can keep us from maximizing the value from our hand. And I see how bloating the pot will often make their postflop play correct, and tie us to the pot very often (bascially negating postflop skill edge). So is the value gained by pushing our preflop equity greater than the postflop edge we give up? I have no idea. If my hand is AKs, then the answer is obvious. If my hand KTo, then the answer is obvious. But T9s....i dunno.

--Rico

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while it decreases our postflop edge, it also decreases the cost of being OOP. if nothing else, these two things should pretty much cancel each other out.

preflop we are basically making a wager that we'll win this hand more than 17% of the time. if we think this is the case, we are getting a return on our money that is greater than the cost of our investment. that equals profit.