WPT Legends: shoving over limpers

[curtains]

I wouldn't shove, I'd just call and hope for the best.

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
Think this is a shove. You'll get looked up here by 2s through 6s a lot because people won't fold pairs to this type of action, so you'll be at least racing.

You'll get looked up by AJ,A10,A9 too and probably KQ/KJ which we obviously hate.

There's a strong chacne though that the hands out there are just some connectors and some Ax hands where tight players will be afraid to make the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds good to me. The first limper with 45K is probably going to call if he has a pair, but you'll probably have 2 overs and at least 1. The other guys you're not worried about at all, if they call, you're either racing or 60/40 behind. Go for it. I shoved over limpers 3 times today within 20 minutes without getting called in a $1500 live event, it works much better live than on the net.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
i would never shove here. these old nitty live guys wind up having hands as strong as JJ here open limping. its ridiculous. id certainly limp though for 300 more.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he has JJ, you have an overcard and all sorts of pot odds. Unless you run into a nit with a quality hand or someone who is trapping, you are usually ahead of pot odds if called by an ace or underpair. Since you actually have a decent shot at stealing the pot live, I like the push.

[nath]

yeah i can see a shove here, because the pot is nice and without any other evidence, i assume open limps are middling hands that won't call a shove (i mean like small pairs and suited connectors a lot of the time)

[Ansky]

this is funny, almost exactly the same way i lost atlantis, cept i had K6o. But same blinds/stacks.

one of the limpers had AQ [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I prob puss it up and limp or something.

[LearnedfromTV]

their stack sizes are important but i think shoving is probably fine.

[uclabruinz]

[ QUOTE ]
their stack sizes are important but i think shoving is probably fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then read the second post I made in this thread.

[uclabruinz]

Curtains and Raptor, do you think shoving here is actually -EV, or that it's just too close and you're more likely to find better spots by open shoving? I mean I have a hard time seeing this as -cEV.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
their stack sizes are important but i think shoving is probably fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then read the second post I made in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

dammit. missed it.

if they both were deep, like 30k+, i'd be more worried about a call. both having 15-18 would be ideal. as is, i think a shove is fine.

[uclabruinz]

One thing I'm not sure all online players realize is just how big the antes are. It's costing us 1575 per round in this level, and if we complete the small blind and fold postflop we'll have 5400. Also, finding spots to open shove isn't always easy either, because any good players are fighting for the antes so having it fold to you in LP is rare at this stage of the tourney IMHO. That was part of my thought process in shoving, that I really couldn't afford to pass up this spot even if our FE wasn't that great.

Anyway, I doubt there's much more to discuss here. Results: first villain took about a minute to fold, second guy tanked and went on and on reasoning out a call "needing only 40%" and then shoved it in and flipped over 98o.

My friend who started this conversation by questioning my play says there is a phenomena, especially in live play, of people inventing all sorts of reasons to make bad calls in these spots so he felt my FE was practically nonexistent. Seems he was right since villain called with 98o.