HonestHoldem Terms and Conditions

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You and your bf Ray can cheat all you want.Ill continue to honor my word because unlike you,my word means something to me.Im sure you both have a cheaters forum at which you are welcomed with open arms.Go away and post there,your bs is not flying here. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

dont promise me that you're obeying your site t&c.
your promise means little in a real money game between
strangers over the internet.

prove to me that you're telling the truth.
i bear no burden to trust you simply because you ask me to.

you are tracking, botting, teaming.
you bear the burden to prove that you are not or cannot.

common sense game theory holds that each self-interested
player will avail themselves of the best edge increasing decisions available.

you seem like you're self-interested to me.
nothing wrong with that. but dont lie to me.

you could be nothing more than a shrewd ostrich farmer
telling the herd what you want them to hear. and that
means you're a liar. i don't cooperate with liars.

if you want my cooperation with the t&c
then first prove to me that you are cooperating with the t&c
then we can talk.

i have no reason to trust you and it's kind of an insult
for you to even ask me to trust you when real money is involved.

when real money is involved then i'm gonna need more than
your "good faith" promise dude.

in online holdem,
everyone is guilty of +ev decisions
until somebody can prove that those
decisions are not possible.

ray



[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]Little news flash for ya Ray,its irrelevant to me whether you believe that my word is bond.I do not compete honestly to prove my worth to someone else.I do this and try to be a man of my word for myself.Btw,maybe you could quit hiding behind this silly concept in all your responces and speak for yourself as a man,but i suppose it is easier for you to spit lies and rationalize your behavior this way,fair enough.But to leave you on a more positive note,look on the bright side Ray,you at least had one other cheater come to your defence in a week.And the idea he proposed that people that are against cheaters are in a way similar to people who fought against the civil rights movement,is brilliant.It is obvious that this guy is a true friend to your struggle,and his integrity is no doubt on par with yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

5th,

i really do want to play at a site where i dont have to
trust anybody - not you, not the operator.

i'm not sure i can say this more clearly.

nothing would make me happier than to see a major las vegas
land casino open their own site that was certified by the
gcb and had a t&c very much like honest holdem.

i would deposit and play there immediately.
(as would many others)

now, seeing as that has not yet occurred,
my only recourse is to continue playing honest
holdem at other sites - this is fine - i dont
care if any of my opponents are tracking, botting
or teaming me - i can deal with that. what bothers
me is that i am forced to trust that the operator
is not colluding with one of my opponents or doing
deck selection.

ray bornert

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

matrix,

instead of you lying to me to get me to be a "good faith"
player while your actual intentions are to be "bad faith"
due to potential edge from tracking, botting, teaming,


[/ QUOTE ]

Lying to you??

thats a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Ray forget about the bot business your calling is at the Comedy Store.

If you could point out where I have lied to you that would be interesting.

I'll get an edge over the opposition any way I can as long as it's within the T&C's of the sites I play at.

So yes I track my opponents - and I participate in strategy forums here - and I frequently look through hands my better opponents have played against me and try to incorporate someof those plays into my game.

Yes the server frequently gives me access to information that I wouldn't normally get (mucked hands at showdown) and I use this information to the best of my abilities.

To be honest tho the information the HUD gives me I find most useful for table selection, most stats need a large sample to converge to anything meaningful and I can judge more accurately how loose/tight a certain player is playing a particular session after sitting for 3-4 orbits now in any case.

However thats as far as it goes - I don't run a bot and have no interest in running one, and I certainly don't cheat by colluding with people and sharing my hole card info as easy as it would be to do this via AIM or Skype or something similar.

I want to beat the game because of my own skill - I play mostly for fun and beer money, if I can advance my skill to the point where I can make $50/hr+ consistantly so that I could pursue poker as a means of support for a while instead of "working" so much the better.

Cheating at low stakes levels would be like following a walkthrough to win at Final Fantasy - pointless.

[ QUOTE ]

you dont have to promise me anything.
i dont have to promise you anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that bit right.

[ QUOTE ]

if we both agree to this then we instantly
become "good faith" opponents on a level field.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we bot agree to that then I am agreeing that collusion is OK.

I am never going to agree that collusion is OK. I am aware it happens - I am aware that it's easy to do - I am aware that it takes a degree of skill to actually use the extra information you get to develop an edge for HE (Omaha is a little easier in this regard)

But I don't have to like it - and I certainly don't have to support it.

I am not a "bad faith player" - if the poker sites banned tracking opponents tomorrow - I would stop tracking my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

matrix,

everything you're saying here could be 100% true
but i have no way to know that. you owe me proof.
the standard site t&c does not make us friends.
you cannot get me to trust you just because you
claim to obey a site t&c that cannot be secured.
i want proof.

i want to play honest holdem because in that game
i'm not forced to trust you; all of your actions
are, by definition, honest.

i want to play honest holdem because in that game
i'm not forced to trust the site operator; he can
collude with an opponent sure - but not without
detection. he can run house player/bots sure
but as long as the game server cant collude
with his props then its me and mine against
him and his and i'm ok with that.
the field is level for one and all.

no terms and conditions like this have ever
existed on the net even though this is the
only type of game that can be secured on
the net. why has this not happened?

ray bornert

[RayBornert]

an honest poll here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=8167678

ray bornert

[ginko]

to the OP:

By your reasoning, since we cant stop EVERY killer and EVERY rapist, than we should not have any laws at all. Killing and raping soon to be legal !!!

Dude your poker website is not going to work, lets just be honest.

gg

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
By your reasoning, since we cant stop EVERY killer and EVERY rapist, than we should not have any laws at all. Killing and raping soon to be legal !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that make Ray an ACer?... paging Iron...

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
to the OP:

By your reasoning, since we cant stop EVERY killer and EVERY rapist, than we should not have any laws at all. Killing and raping soon to be legal !!!

Dude your poker website is not going to work, lets just be honest.

gg

[/ QUOTE ]

your analogy fails to address the fact that the designers
of online games have total control over the game world and
can make changes where necessary. it's not like it's not
possible to adopt an honest holdem t&c. it's very possible.

your real world example is a poor reference because there is
no way to fix rape and murder before the fact unless you
want to talk about a "minority report" type of future.

if somebody says:
"i want to live in a world with no rape and murder"
we'd tell that person that's not possible right now.

if somebody says:
"i want to play an online holdem game where it's not
possible for one of my opponents to click the accept button
and then not cooperate with the t&c"
we can point them toward an honest holdem site.

ray bornert

[Nologo]

I wouldn't have thought it was possible for anyone to be this retarded.

[cyclonus]

Ray, u have a real twisted sense of justice/right.

[brendanb438]

Who is more retarded? Ray or 2+2 for allowing him to continue to post this bullshiat.

-Brendan

[Jeff Oneye]

Here is what I suspect is happening. Ray's sales have probably dropped off due to lack of customer demand, quite possibly related to the new internet gaming prohibition. Maybe his competitors have superior products. Maybe his product is dated and cumbersome. I don't know. For all I know he's having unprecedented success.

But it's quite obvious he's attempting to create a buzz and bring attention to his cheatware and botware. He knows how easy it is to push the buttons of honest players. This serves to keep conversation alive so he can generate interest in his winholdem website. Under the guise of his arguments that all poker sites are inept, incompetent and corrupt, his real motivation is obvious.

Roy is getting all the free advertising he wants. Without paying for parking, he works off the back of his carnival wagon. He snakes his way around and tries to convince us that the online game is hopelessly filled with other reptiles. We're sheep waiting to be poisoned if we don't join him in embracing corruption. So why not shed our old sheep's skin, slither over to his site, and buy some of his snake oil.

I don't think this is the appropriate forum for enabling a notorious cheat to recruit new grifters. In fact, twoplustwo should not allow such a forum. Of course, as astute players we should always be cognizant of the risks posed by cheaters and bots, but I think this can be accomplished without this narcissistic windbag. There is no upside in allowing him to continue his ad campaign. He's not interested in meaningful debate; he's only interested in getting his fangs on some new customers.

JeffreyREBT