T7s vs lagtag

[KitCloudkicker]

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Who is Villain?

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Big eric

[Man of Means]

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however, there are 2 people between I and villain. dont you think my line is more consistent with a weak, very vulnerable made hand?

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your hand (from his perspective) could also be a semi bluff, as in an ace-high combo draw that decides to go headsup with a consciously lag player in a medium-sized pot. The line you took does not make your hand look like a monster, but two pair should definitely be a concern from villains POV.

however this problem with playing tag against lags is usually that they can narrow your range based on the preflop/flop action (you have in order of likelihood: one pair with the board, a big ace-high draw, two pair, anything else).
and you can't narrow his range much BUT in this hand since you are in the blind in a limped pot, your range is just about as wide as his.

Since you don't know if the 3bet is for pure value (he knows he's ahead of your range) or a move (he knows you know he knows you have a weak hand) and he could be at either level -- hand strength dictates strategy.

so on balance you can not fold all of the time. A game-theorical strategy might include check/folding UI randomly like 10% of the time, perhaps.

[Mitke]

* grunchio *

Villain is representing a minimum of an overpair. He could be making a stand here with something you beat, sometimes.

I b/c a 7. Mainly because I don't want to get 3-bet that I cannot fold to. Set, straight are all possible for villain.

A blank I c/c. If he's bluffing let him take a stab. If not, lose the minimum.

[milesdyson]

turn play only makes sense when he has something like A6s/K6s, otherwise you're just c/ring against a better hand or it's getting checked through a good amount.

[KitCloudkicker]

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turn play only makes sense when he has something like A6s/K6s, otherwise you're just c/ring against a better hand or it's getting checked through a good amount.

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i dont get why this is true when the BB and a limper are between the button and I, the pot is decent sized, and the villain is a lagtag.

[milesdyson]

is he raising the flop with anything but a strong 6 (A6s/K6s only imo - unlikely he's overlimping Q6s), flush draw, 22/33/66 or 54s? i think 54s is easily in his range. does c/ring turn make sense against this range? i don't think so. i don't see why he'd bet flush draws 4 way.

[KitCloudkicker]

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is he raising the flop with anything but a strong 6 (A6s/K6s only imo - unlikely he's overlimping Q6s), flush draw, 22/33/66 or 54s? i think 54s is easily in his range. does c/ring turn make sense against this range? i don't think so. i don't see why he'd bet flush draws 4 way.

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wow, the turn play didnt occur to me at the time to be wrong. but think about it.

imo, this turn raise is easily one of those "exploitable" plays that elindauer mentioned in the micros thread.

at 2+2, we are conditioned to take the following actions:

1) if our hand is showdownable but vulnerable, make a move to drive others out of the pot (if it is of good size)
2) if our hand is very powerful, make a move to trap others into the pot

in a vacuum, sounds like good strategy, right? the problem is that it fails to take into account:

1) main villains hand range
2) other opponents hand ranges
3) 3 bet range of main villain
4) calling range of opponents


here, miles is absolutely right. no good player is betting a naked draw into this many opponents on the river. he'll def bet a 6, might bet a pair+draw, and def bets monsters and other such strong hands.

if i CR the turn, sure I drive out BB and limper. but what am I driving out?

1) gutshots. they probably arent calling if i lead turn anyway
2) very weak pair draws that again probably arent callign if i lead turn, and even if, are drawing very slim

in other words, i'm worried about driving out hands that are already in really bad shape, and risking getting 3 bet by a much better hand (as well as a bluff).

this turn is a bet/call. there is no other way to play it imo.

[ssmallz]

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turn play only makes sense when he has something like A6s/K6s, otherwise you're just c/ring against a better hand or it's getting checked through a good amount.

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i dont get why this is true when the BB and a limper are between the button and I, the pot is decent sized, and the villain is a lagtag.


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The more I think about this hand, the more I dislike your turn play. Villain is a lag tag who limped pf and just raised a bunch of limpers on the flop in position. His hand rang is still prettty wide but we can assume, flush draw, 6x, 88?, 99?, 45?, 75?, sets

When you check the flop, button is likley to check behind when he's got a weaker hand like a flusdraw and bet stronger hands like 2 pairs and sets. When you c/r button you're very likely to get it HU w/the best hand which doesn't improve your equity much. I prefer betting out on the turn b/c it will force the limpers in a tough position of getting raised again so they will likely fold their unimproved overs or whatever other crap they have. On top of that you make button play much more strait foward as he can't check behind with a draw and will realize that A high is no good. He might still raise w/a 6 intending to take free showdown but thats not the worst thing in the world here b/c 2 bets still go in on the turn. When 3 bets go in on the turn you can't like your hand too much and given your description of your opponent its tough to make any good decisions about his hands when that happens.

[NinaWilliams]

Im folding the river UI. He's probably taking the free card with a FD and betting his made hands. Unless he decided to turn A6 into a bluff, you're beat here just about always. I was also going to say that I dont like the turn c/r but miles got there first.

[neurotiq]

Kit requested that micros posters grunch this hand, so that's what I'm doing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Preflop and flop look good.

I think I'd probably just call on the turn.

River doesn't look so good for us after the 3bet. I'll hope for you that a spade hit the felt. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]