a fun 97s hand

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I GUESS think this is barely worth playing preflop, but why did you limp 3 bet it? How is that not awful?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think 97s wins more than 17% of the time 6handed? 20% of the time 5handed? someone needs to do some stoving!

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I GUESS think this is barely worth playing preflop, but why did you limp 3 bet it? How is that not awful?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think 97s wins more than 17% of the time 6handed? 20% of the time 5handed? someone needs to do some stoving!

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave the limpers 23% of hands excluding their raising hands from their VPIP and trimming a tiny bit of other stuff because they are in EP.
I gave the BB a 40ish % defense range. Basically any 2 suited, and pair excluding the higher pairs, and some other connecty stuff. I gave the sb the same.
I think the SB's range was prob actually tighter than that though, so I was prob being overly generous to you. I also gave the button raiser a wider range than you mentioned. This is the 6 handed calc, and you can see you are below equity.

Even if you were slightly above equity, the 3 bet would still be bad though, because you are forcing yourself to play badly after the flop and lose money. Like whenever you flop a pair you have to see the river. Whenever you flop a gutshot you have to stay in even for like 3 cold if you also have backdoor spades. This isn't good news for you. Basically, you are creating a situation where you and the fish would play exactly the same postflop, i.e. you have less of a postflop edge, according to the principal of
--- Reciprocality

Double edit: basically, you are turning a decent speculative hand into one that will lose money after the flop in a lot of situations, i.e. you will put money in with negative postflop equity. So you managed to take an implied odds hand and give it reverse implied odds qualities. HER NAME IS RIO AND SHE DANCES ON THE SAND, HER NAME IS RIO AND YOU JUST BUTCHERED YOUR HAND

GG bro

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,912,085 games 225.297 secs 21,802 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 15.094% 14.33% 00.77% 703882 37967.83 { 9s7s }
Hand 1: 27.537% 26.73% 00.83% 1312798 40586.92 { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 14.268% 13.33% 00.95% 654607 46622.17 { 66-22, A6s-A2s, KTs-K6s, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A6o, KQo, KTo-K9o, QTo-Q9o, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 14.280% 13.34% 00.95% 655278 46562.50 { 66-22, A6s-A2s, KTs-K6s, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A6o, KQo, KTo-K9o, QTo-Q9o, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 14.426% 13.54% 00.89% 665316 43708.58 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }
Hand 5: 14.394% 13.52% 00.89% 663934 43510.00 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }

[Budget Boy]

I actually like the idea behind this play: get more money into a multiway pot, in position, with a hand that plays well multiway. I might try this but with a little stronger hand, something like J 10 suited or 10 9 suited. I don't think I could pull the trigger with ninety seven.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the idea behind this play: get more money into a multiway pot, in position, with a hand that plays well multiway. I might try this but with a little stronger hand, something like J 10 suited or 10 9 suited. I don't think I could pull the trigger with ninety seven.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah guys let's all stop playing poker after the flop and just play spastic on the first 2 cards.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I GUESS think this is barely worth playing preflop, but why did you limp 3 bet it? How is that not awful?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think 97s wins more than 17% of the time 6handed? 20% of the time 5handed? someone needs to do some stoving!

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave the limpers 23% of hands excluding their raising hands from their VPIP and trimming a tiny bit of other stuff because they are in EP.
I gave the BB a 40ish % defense range. Basically any 2 suited, and pair excluding the higher pairs, and some other connecty stuff. I gave the sb the same.
I think the SB's range was prob actually tighter than that though, so I was prob being overly generous to you. I also gave the button raiser a wider range than you mentioned. This is the 6 handed calc, and you can see you are below equity.

Even if you were slightly above equity, the 3 bet would still be bad though, because you are forcing yourself to play badly after the flop and lose money. Like whenever you flop a pair you have to see the river. Whenever you flop a gutshot you have to stay in even for like 3 cold if you also have backdoor spades. This isn't good news for you. Basically, you are creating a situation where you and the fish would play exactly the same postflop, i.e. you have less of a postflop edge, according to the principal of
--- Reciprocality

Double edit: basically, you are turning a decent speculative hand into one that will lose money after the flop in a lot of situations, i.e. you will put money in with negative postflop equity. So you managed to take an implied odds hand and give it reverse implied odds qualities. HER NAME IS RIO AND SHE DANCES ON THE SAND, HER NAME IS RIO AND YOU JUST BUTCHERED YOUR HAND

GG bro

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,912,085 games 225.297 secs 21,802 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 15.094% 14.33% 00.77% 703882 37967.83 { 9s7s }
Hand 1: 27.537% 26.73% 00.83% 1312798 40586.92 { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 14.268% 13.33% 00.95% 654607 46622.17 { 66-22, A6s-A2s, KTs-K6s, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A6o, KQo, KTo-K9o, QTo-Q9o, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 14.280% 13.34% 00.95% 655278 46562.50 { 66-22, A6s-A2s, KTs-K6s, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A6o, KQo, KTo-K9o, QTo-Q9o, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 14.426% 13.54% 00.89% 665316 43708.58 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }
Hand 5: 14.394% 13.52% 00.89% 663934 43510.00 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }




[/ QUOTE ]

GREAT BALLS OF SNOW! you're busting out Tommy Angelo on me. damn. i can't compete with that. log me out mama, i'm comin' home with my tail between my legs.

i posted this from memory at work. i've screwed something up because last night i stoved it afterwards and showed like 23% 5handed and 20% 6handed. for that reason i think i've missposted some stats on players. the ranges must be wider than we've assigned or i would have never done this.

fwiw, last night i assigned a random hand to the first UTG limper(horrible ATC player), top 40% less premium holdings for the second limper, i gave the button's range earlier, around top 30% for sb and top 50% for the bb(less the prem. hands obv). as i said, in my OP i've screwed something up.

i do agree with your comments about postflop. generally speaking this certainly levels the playing field and helps the bad players avoid the mistakes from which we profit. but specifically speaking, when the pot's going to be large anyway(as it is here), this effect is somewhat mitigated because they're calling correctly regardless. what's do i care if they're getting 12-1 or 24-1? also, i'm chasing anyway as well. so what does that leave? table image 101. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Budget Boy]

[ QUOTE ]

Even if you were slightly above equity, the 3 bet would still be bad though, because you are forcing yourself to play badly after the flop and lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really understand this statement. Just because an extra bet goes in pre-flop you are suddenly going to start playing "badly" after the flop? I understand that inflating the pot increases the odds that everyone is getting to call including ours, but why would you have to play "bad." Either a play is +EV or it isn't, and you can certainly still "play poker" in a big pot.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

GREAT BALLS OF SNOW! you're busting out duran duran on me. damn. i can't compete with that. log me out mama, i'm comin' home with my tail between my legs.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if you were slightly above equity, the 3 bet would still be bad though, because you are forcing yourself to play badly after the flop and lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really understand this statement. Just because an extra bet goes in pre-flop you are suddenly going to start playing "badly" after the flop? I understand that inflating the pot increases the odds that everyone is getting to call including ours, but why would you have to play "bad." Either a play is +EV or it isn't, and you can certainly still "play poker" in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Snowball is saying that you're creating a pot so big it would be incorrect to fold before the river if you flopped a pair or any draw, no matter how weak. It's essentially taking our decision making edge out of the hand, seeing as how we're mathematically forced into the vast majority of our postflop play.

Hence, turning into a fish. Sometimes being good at the pokers is confusing.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if you were slightly above equity, the 3 bet would still be bad though, because you are forcing yourself to play badly after the flop and lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really understand this statement. Just because an extra bet goes in pre-flop you are suddenly going to start playing "badly" after the flop? I understand that inflating the pot increases the odds that everyone is getting to call including ours, but why would you have to play "bad." Either a play is +EV or it isn't, and you can certainly still "play poker" in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Snowball is saying that you're creating a pot so big it would be incorrect to fold before the river if you flopped a pair or any draw, no matter how weak. It's essentially taking our decision making edge out of the hand, seeing as how we're mathematically forced into the vast majority of our postflop play.

Hence, turning into a fish. Sometimes being good at the pokers is confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

but one could argue that the pot is going to be large anyway. is the difference between a 12sb pot and an 18sb so large? does the extra 3bb really impact the postflop decision-making so much? we're drawing to two pair anyway. we're drawing to a gutshot anyway. what's the difference REALLY?

[Hyperrrprank]

Ouch. I like the preflop limp, but agree with Snowball that the limp-reraise is painful. We had a situation where we were paying 2 bets to see the flop with this hand, and now we've paid 4. Not only that, note that SB folded out after it was 2 more back to him, cutting the field in a situation were we want as much action as possible if we catch something big.

The advantage of building this big pot is that it ties our opponents to weak draws when we're ahead, but as Snowball points out this is a two-edged sword that affects us as well. There's definitely a big difference between the 12 bet pot and the 18, since with the 12 we might be able to fold UI on the turn, but the 18 is a mathematical anchor that is dragging us to the river with as little as 4-5 outs. I think we need a stronger hand to make this effect work in our favor, since we're almost certainly not +EV here preflop.