Baseball Question

[HajiShirazu]

Why is it that these days, people commonly talk about starting pitchers being "overworked" if they run pitch counts over 100 or pitch past the seventh inning, when just 30 or 40 years ago, it was common to pitch on three or even two days rest and going into the ninth inning was the norm? There is simply no way that people's arms have simply changed such that they can't throw as many pitches, in fact, today supposedly athletes are far better conditioned and should be able to go longer.
I know there was less offense, so were pitch counts lower in those days? Or was it simply because back then pitcher attrition was so high that people eventually figured out that one could only stay healthy throwing 90 pitches a game every fifth day. Yet pitchers today seem to still be getting injured as much as ever, so I guess it isn't working. Or is it that modern managers/statistics indicate that a bullpen guy is better than the average starter in the 7th-9th innings? With so much more scoring, this doesn't seem right either. Or are pitchers today putting more energy in each pitch and hence really can't go as long? I don't get it.

[tdarko]

Haji,

The avg. pitch speed has increased over the years and person throwing in the upper 90's puts a lot more torque on his body, shoulder and arm in comparison to a pitcher that throws in the mid to upper 80's which many pitchers sat 40 years ago.

Plus, we know a lot more about how the body works and what damage is being done when we throw the baseball and we are trying to lengthen careers. If we knew half of what we knew know back when Sandy Koufax was pitching his career may not have been so short b/c he was one of the exceptions that threw hard and used a ton of torque when throwing.

If you go back even further than that pitchers threw even slower, less of a follow through, more junk and creative stuff such as spit balls etc. As the game changes and players get stronger the power part of the game takes over and power pitchers do a number on their bodies during a game.

[prohornblower]

Not sure. I think a lot of it is over-reacting. There really shouldn't be a "norm" for each pitcher. I mean Mark Prior and Kerry Wood should be yanked after 30, yet guys like Shilling, Johnson, etc. may be more liable to throw over 120.

Plus, what I find funny is how people have this misconception that 120 pitches is "20% more than typical", where 100 is "typical". This simply isn't true.

On game day, an MLB pitcher will throw probably at least 20-30 long-tosses in the OF, THEN throw about 40 full-effort pitches in the bullpen before gametime.

This means that if a pitcher throws 100 pitches during the game, he's really thrown about 160 that night. So, throwing 120 in the game is like 180 for the night.

180-160 = 20
20/160 = 12.5%

So in reality, what is perceived as 20% overtime, is really just 12.5%.

I think the main reason is that, with today's salaries, managers do NOT want to be the one to blame for a pitcher having elbow or shoulder problems. Back in the day, the players weren't such steep "investments".

Take Dusty Baker for example: Old school type manager who has already ruined Mark Prior. Not sure if that was part of his "4 year plan" when he signed on to coach! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that these days, people commonly talk about starting pitchers being "overworked" if they run pitch counts over 100 or pitch past the seventh inning, when just 30 or 40 years ago, it was common to pitch on three or even two days rest and going into the ninth inning was the norm?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Pedro pitched 30 to 40 years ago, he'd throw 300 innings. There weren't as many walks, strikeouts, or home runs. Guys went up to hit the ball into play, and many of the hitters weren't very good at all and you could turn it down a notch.

[CheckRaise]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure. I think a lot of it is over-reacting. There really shouldn't be a "norm" for each pitcher. I mean Mark Prior and Kerry Wood should be yanked after 30, yet guys like Shilling, Johnson, etc. may be more liable to throw over 120.

Plus, what I find funny is how people have this misconception that 120 pitches is "20% more than typical", where 100 is "typical". This simply isn't true.

On game day, an MLB pitcher will throw probably at least 20-30 long-tosses in the OF, THEN throw about 40 full-effort pitches in the bullpen before gametime.

This means that if a pitcher throws 100 pitches during the game, he's really thrown about 160 that night. So, throwing 120 in the game is like 180 for the night.

180-160 = 20
20/160 = 12.5%

So in reality, what is perceived as 20% overtime, is really just 12.5%.

I think the main reason is that, with today's salaries, managers do NOT want to be the one to blame for a pitcher having elbow or shoulder problems. Back in the day, the players weren't such steep "investments".

Take Dusty Baker for example: Old school type manager who has already ruined Mark Prior. Not sure if that was part of his "4 year plan" when he signed on to coach! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Pitchers don't usually throw 100% when warming up in the bullpen or when long tossing before a game.

[DougOzzzz]

[ QUOTE ]


Plus, what I find funny is how people have this misconception that 120 pitches is "20% more than typical", where 100 is "typical". This simply isn't true.

On game day, an MLB pitcher will throw probably at least 20-30 long-tosses in the OF, THEN throw about 40 full-effort pitches in the bullpen before gametime.

This means that if a pitcher throws 100 pitches during the game, he's really thrown about 160 that night. So, throwing 120 in the game is like 180 for the night.

180-160 = 20
20/160 = 12.5%

So in reality, what is perceived as 20% overtime, is really just 12.5%.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they only throw 12.5% more pitches - but pitches "160 to 180" or whatever are a lot more stressful on a pitcher's arm than pitches 0-20. In reality, the difference between 100 and 120 pitches is probably much more than 20%.

[dabluebery]

I always wonder about this. People always start naming pitchers who threw 400 innings for 20 years in a row as examples of why pitchers today are getting off easy and not as tough. It seems like faulty logic to me.

Obviously there's no disputing the fact that plenty of pitchers threw a ton of innings, but we don't really know the names of the pitchers who threw a lot of innings for a few years and then blew their arms out.

I always suspected that guys like Seaver and Spahn and all the other pitchers who made it through all those complete games and innings are just the outliers in a bell curve, essentially irrelevent in the grand scheme of things.

[prohornblower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure. I think a lot of it is over-reacting. There really shouldn't be a "norm" for each pitcher. I mean Mark Prior and Kerry Wood should be yanked after 30, yet guys like Shilling, Johnson, etc. may be more liable to throw over 120.

Plus, what I find funny is how people have this misconception that 120 pitches is "20% more than typical", where 100 is "typical". This simply isn't true.

On game day, an MLB pitcher will throw probably at least 20-30 long-tosses in the OF, THEN throw about 40 full-effort pitches in the bullpen before gametime.

This means that if a pitcher throws 100 pitches during the game, he's really thrown about 160 that night. So, throwing 120 in the game is like 180 for the night.

180-160 = 20
20/160 = 12.5%

So in reality, what is perceived as 20% overtime, is really just 12.5%.

I think the main reason is that, with today's salaries, managers do NOT want to be the one to blame for a pitcher having elbow or shoulder problems. Back in the day, the players weren't such steep "investments".

Take Dusty Baker for example: Old school type manager who has already ruined Mark Prior. Not sure if that was part of his "4 year plan" when he signed on to coach! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Pitchers don't usually throw 100% when warming up in the bullpen or when long tossing before a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

They throw at least 95% in the bullpen. Long tosses aren't too strenuous, but they stretch the arm out pretty well, their tosses probably get up to an excess of 120 feet.

Next time you go to an MLB game, watch the pitchers working out. Count the throws if you can. They damn near do almost as much prep. throwing as in-game throwing.