Contraversial AC Related Thread (TL;PR)

[foal]

xorbie,
your point about natural rights and coercion was very good IMO. the rest of your post was a little fuzzier so of course it's what's getting picked on. that's the trouble with saying too much... your post will be combed for its weakest and most irrelevant points, which will then be attacked passionately. I would like to see more discussion about rights, force and coercion.

[zasterguava]

There is one great flaw of free-markets that is ignored here; advertising.

[zasterguava]

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BTW: free market/AC are two very different things, although AC necessarily includes a free market, a free market system does not require an AC system.

natedogg

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Lol, I think everyone is aware of this.

[tomdemaine]

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There is one great flaw of free-markets that is ignored here; advertising.

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Can you make a new thread with your thoughts on this because I'd be interested in hearing them but this thread has already had hijack accusations in it.

[pvn]

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Of course, your freedom is limited by other people's freedom. However, nobody can force you to buy something, which, in a state, happens all the time.


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Pretty sure nature can force you to buy things, in the sense that you otherwise die.

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Nature isn't a "somebody".

I already mentioned earlier in this thread that the "work or die" strawman was getting wheeled out.

The fact that nature imposes some requirements on you isn't really relevant, because there's no moral choice made to impose those - it's just the result of the laws of physics. Further, these requirements are imposed upon everyone. We all have to eat.

The reason the "work or die" requirement is brought up is usually to take that preexisting "imposition" and use it to justify further imposition (moorobot is a big fan of this tactic). "You are already forced to work or die, so we can force you to do other things."

[wtfsvi]

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There is one great flaw of free-markets that is ignored here; advertising.

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Can you make a new thread with your thoughts on this because I'd be interested in hearing them but this thread has already had hijack accusations in it.

[/ QUOTE ] I too would be interested in a discussion about this.

[pvn]

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Prices are NOT "determined" by the market. They're determined by two people who want to trade. Nobody is REQUIRED to trade with you only at "the market price" - otherwise there would never be any change in prices!

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pvn,

Do me a favor for a day. Next time you go to the supermarket, offer to pay less than the prices charged.

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It's funny that you think of "the market" as something that can be represented by one single store.

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It's funny that most ACers on this board choose to be condescending instead of actually addressing the points.

The point I'm making is that pvn's assertion that the market is pure voluntary interaction between two people who want to trade is often not the case in practice. He's using it to highlight the difference between that an government in a dishonest way.

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How is it not the case in practice? I go to the store. There is a TV for $1000. I say "no thanks." Or I say, "will you take $900?" and the guy there says "no thanks."

We have to both agree, neither of us can arbitrarily set the terms and compel the other party to trade.

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pvn: Prices are the result of voluntary transactions
Me: Laws are the result of voluntary transactions

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Except I don't have to trade. I do have to accept laws. Laws are the result of SOMEONE ELSE'S voluntary agreements, that are then IMPOSED upon others.

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pvn is inherently against the idea of the people delegating others to manage the common affairs of society.

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Wrong. If you want to delegate, go right ahead.

You don't have any legitimate authority to delegate for ME, though.

[pvn]

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Its funny that you come this far and stop. If you want decentralization then why not go down to the individual? That would be the most accountability, the most control over the purse strings, and the largest that each voice gets to be in the mob.

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Quite simply because there is nothing about humanity or the environment that makes living as an individual "best" in basically any sense.

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This is the hermitization canard. Retaining autonomy does not mean you have to live as an individual. People can voluntarily work and live together while retaining full autonomy.

[Money2Burn]

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There is one great flaw of free-markets that is ignored here; advertising.

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Can you make a new thread with your thoughts on this because I'd be interested in hearing them but this thread has already had hijack accusations in it.

[/ QUOTE ] I too would be interested in a discussion about this.

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[ALawPoker]

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xorbie,
your point about natural rights and coercion was very good IMO. the rest of your post was a little fuzzier so of course it's what's getting picked on. that's the trouble with saying too much... your post will be combed for its weakest and most irrelevant points, which will then be attacked passionately. I would like to see more discussion about rights, force and coercion.

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Are you trying to imply that people are avoiding his better arguments intentionally because we don't have a good answer for them? I mean, what, do you think people are so passionately trying to argue in favor of a position we haven't thought much about and don't have answers to?

"Hmm that's a good point, I dunno if this whole AC thing really makes much sense... but I'm gonna find some irrelevant points so that I can twist peoples' minds into believing it. That's what I'm gonna do today." I just don't get it. ACers believe what we believe because we honest believe it and want to share it.

Most of the discussion here is a hijack that started early in the thread, and people are just responding to other people's arguments.

Raise some discussion about the stuff that's of interest to you if you want to see the conversation go in that direction.

If you're worried that saying too much will get you into trouble, then maybe you ought rethink your position. Looking back to algebra class in high school, I was never worried the teacher was going to tell me things that were less true as it got later in the period.