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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:18 PM
Acevader Acevader is offline
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Default NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

Villain is Bil Ivy and he is: 17/9/1.4

Bil generally doesn't seen to tangle with me much so I'm guessing he largely looks to avoid me unless he has a hand. Thoughts on my fold?

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $95
UTG+1: $213.65
UTG+2: $202
Hero (MP1): $260
MP2: $203.35
CO: $276.35
BTN: $23.05
SB: $196
BB: $229.75

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP1)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2, UTG+2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10</font>, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $8

Flop: ($23) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $16</font>, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises to $32</font>, Hero calls $16

Turn: ($87) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $65</font>, UTG+1 calls $65

River: ($217) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG+1 bets $106.65 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $217 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG+1 mucked and WON $214 (+$107 NET)
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:33 PM
Berge20 Berge20 is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

He's got to feel you'll bet the turn very frequently if he's holding a true monster. Otherwise, he's got ~170 back and a ~90 pot on the river to try and get value out of you.

Odd line though and he certainly can't believe he's got much FE.

Why are you betting the turn if you're folding the river?
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:38 PM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you betting the turn if you're folding the river?

[/ QUOTE ]My thought as well. Were you going to fold to a turn c/r?

I think you're beat, but I'm not folding for this amount.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:42 PM
AllTheCheese AllTheCheese is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

So sick on river. I call but expect to be beat more often than not. I think $65 on the turn is a little excessive. There aren't any prominent draws, and at this point (the turn that is) it looks strongly like he has a weaker PP.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:30 PM
Acevader Acevader is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

I guess $50 on the turn would have done but I felt that he probably had 1010-JJ and knew that if I could get him to call the $65 he'd relut-a-call a river push. That was the plan. However, I never in a million years expected him to lead river into me. He can't think he has much FE and there are few draws that missed. I therefore think it's a value shove and I really can't see him value-shoving 1010-JJ in this spot.

I realize after making the turn bet I am committed however to blindly not change your opinion on commitment in the face of new information is poor play and his river lead tells me I'm beat a massive proportion of the time.

I asked him about the hand afterwards and he claimed quads 9s. That line would make sense and I have no reason to doubt him.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:13 PM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

[ QUOTE ]
I realize after making the turn bet I am committed however to blindly not change your opinion on commitment in the face of new information is poor play and his river lead tells me I'm beat a massive proportion of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]This is all true, but it should also tell you something about your turn bet, as this really isn't any different from a turn check/raise.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:05 AM
Acevader Acevader is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

[ QUOTE ]
This is all true, but it should also tell you something about your turn bet, as this really isn't any different from a turn check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow? Are you suggesting I should have checked through for pot-control? I guess I can see that point but after he checked to me I did put him squarely on 1010 or JJ and felt by betting the turn I could work him in.

Conversely, if I'd played to get stacks in on the flop I think he'd have folded 1010 and possibly JJ (less sure about 2nd one). It's possibly a bit of a failing in my game that he'd know I'd not get stacks in on this flop without at least JJ+
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:03 AM
mmctrab mmctrab is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is all true, but it should also tell you something about your turn bet, as this really isn't any different from a turn check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow? Are you suggesting I should have checked through for pot-control? I guess I can see that point but after he checked to me I did put him squarely on 1010 or JJ and felt by betting the turn I could work him in.

Conversely, if I'd played to get stacks in on the flop I think he'd have folded 1010 and possibly JJ (less sure about 2nd one). It's possibly a bit of a failing in my game that he'd know I'd not get stacks in on this flop without at least JJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

After I get raised on the flop I'm just going to check the turn through when a brick hits. Then you can call a reasonable river bet after another brick hits, or bet/fold the river.
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:19 AM
RiverMustelid RiverMustelid is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

His whole line seems strange to me. A proper reraise could have put some real pressure on you given its hard to give trips any real credit.

As played it does look like pot control from 1010 JJ or so. I like trying to get smallish turn and river bets in, and a fold to a raise from him. He is straightforward enough that if you are reraised you can fold safely.

I think I do fold this river push. This may be a leak though - I am starting to doubt myself with almost any overpair at the moment...
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  #10  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:47 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: NL$200| QQ - Committed but his line is very strong!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is all true, but it should also tell you something about your turn bet, as this really isn't any different from a turn check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I follow? Are you suggesting I should have checked through for pot-control? I guess I can see that point but after he checked to me I did put him squarely on 1010 or JJ and felt by betting the turn I could work him in.

Conversely, if I'd played to get stacks in on the flop I think he'd have folded 1010 and possibly JJ (less sure about 2nd one). It's possibly a bit of a failing in my game that he'd know I'd not get stacks in on this flop without at least JJ+

[/ QUOTE ]If you are not willing to stack off on the turn (which is the same as stacking off on the river), then I don't think you should bet the turn.

Here's the thing- your flop call defines your hand extremely well. Look at it from his perspective. You raised PF, bet the flop, and then called a check/raise. You never have AK here. You never have 66-. You most likely do not have a draw. If he has TT/JJ, he isn't beating much. 88 maybe?

If he's thinking your range at all then his flop c/r either represents a weak hand that is trying to get information about where you are (he put you on AK, but now he knows better), or some kind of monster (a strangely played AA, trip 9s, or a full house).

With a JJ/TT type of hand he has to be very nervous. So yeah, those hands are in his range, but do you really think that if you bet the turn and push the river that it will be JJ/TT often enough to be profitable? His range now is mostly hands he will fold or hands that crush you. You don't want to get it in here, and most of his range you beat (low pocket pairs) are not likely to draw out on you if you give a free card (though with JJ/TT you do risk an overcard coming off and losing one more bet).

JJ/TT may look you up on the river if it's checked through and they might even call one bet on the turn, but I dont' expect him to call 2 bets with those hands. Since you can get your value from them on the turn or the river, better the river where you'll have more information (he has to act first) in a pot that is appropriate for the strength of your hand.
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