I guess I forgot how to play pokers

jba · #1 07-15-2007, 10:41 PM

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG raises, ???

yourface · #2 07-15-2007, 10:46 PM

no reads?

TheWunderkind · #3 07-15-2007, 10:47 PM

why not 3bet the Flop?

jba · #4 07-15-2007, 10:50 PM

no reads, except I was laughing during the whole 4 tabling session about how EVERYONE IS ALWAYS BLUFFING in this game. most hands were headsup pf though. and neither of these clowns were one of the ones I noticed.

3bet the flop is like a either or thing for me, I usually put utg on a fd and like to trap him on occasion.

aargh57 · #5 07-15-2007, 11:19 PM

I guess I probably call down now cuz I'm a calldown monkey. Isn't there a decent chance that UTG has now just got a Jack?

The flop question has to have a correct play though right? If UTG's on a FD and button on an overpair then won't you get more value by 3 betting the flop? Sometimes button will cap it with his overpair and UTG will still be paying for his draw.

Leader · #6 07-15-2007, 11:22 PM

I would 3-bet the flop and avoid this, but given that you didn't, it's all about UTG. Or since you have no reads, what the average stars 10/20 player who limps UTG, CC's the flop, and c/r the turn would have. In any case, calling is much better then 3-betting because you have BT drawing to 2 outs or less almost always.

If I had to pick, I'd call since I think there's not much chance we get caught in the middle of a raising war.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #7 07-15-2007, 11:37 PM

If this is a tough spot for you then I would just 3bet the flop. If the turn is an easy fold, then I like calling the flop as you did, with the plan of folding to a check/raise and check/raising yourself if the utg just calls or folds.

Now back to what actually happened. I dont play at PS but in the games I play in the typical player who limps UTG, coldcalls a flop raise and then check/raises a total blank on the turn after two people have shown tons of strengh will have 8x or better often enough to make the turn a fold for you.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #8 07-15-2007, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

3bet the flop is like a either or thing for me, I usually put utg on a fd and like to trap him on occasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This spot should not be an either or situation IMO.

I Like calling and trapping on the turn only if I can fold safely if the UTG raises the turn. Under the fold safely assumption, calling and trapping on the turn should yeild a higher return than 3betting the flop against most opponents since you will get to simultaneously maximize your win and minimize your loss. This also assumes we have no worry about the turn getting checked through.

If you dont know what to do if UTG check/raises the turn or if you are unsure that the other villain will always bet the turn then 3bet/leading will be the money play.

secretprankster · #9 07-16-2007, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If this is a tough spot for you then I would just 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't seem legit. UTG isn't going to be raising the turn that often, I don't see why this would have a big role in our reasoning. I would mostly 3-bet the flop but bet-calling and "representing" a missed AK has to be fine from time to time, esp. with the ace of trump.

jba, I call down here but this may be just because of the junk I've seen lately in these spots and that Jsxs wouldn't surprise me at all. And folding aces is annoying.

More I look at it the more I think you have to call down.

mvoss · #10 07-16-2007, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is a tough spot for you then I would just 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't seem legit. UTG isn't going to be raising the turn that often, I don't see why this would have a big role in our reasoning. I would mostly 3-bet the flop but bet-calling and "representing" a missed AK has to be fine from time to time, esp. with the ace of trump.

jba, I call down here but this may be just because of the junk I've seen lately in these spots and that Jsxs wouldn't surprise me at all. And folding aces is annoying.

More I look at it the more I think you have to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a tough spot because hero underrepresented his hand on the flop. ILP's post makes sense. If you don't want to be put in this spot you can 3-bet the flop and take it from there, this way you have shown the true strength of your hand and seen how your opponents react.