Debate discussion: intellectual property in an AC land

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discuss here

[ShakeZula06]

Should be an interesting thread. I'd like to have a debate thread for the merits of IP in general, not just AC land.

[Poofler]

Based on the provided statements, it looks like they'll be arguing that too.

[almostbusto]

I can't remember which, but one poster states that Ideas are not scarce? I hope they flush that out since that assumption seems false to me.

sure, when a song is recorded, 10 copies or 10 billion copies can be downloaded at negligible cost. still there are huge 'discovery' costs associated with most worthwhile ideas. if people aren't compensated for incurring 'discovery' costs then what incentive do they have to properly invest their time into discovering new ideas.


i hope the solution isn't "humans have an innate desire to create" or "love".

[Poofler]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember which, but one poster states that Ideas are not scarce? I hope they flush that out since that assumption seems false to me.

sure, when a song is recorded, 10 copies or 10 billion copies can be downloaded at negligible cost. still there are huge 'discovery' costs associated with most worthwhile ideas. if people aren't compensated for incurring 'discovery' costs then what incentive do they have to properly invest their time into discovering new ideas.


i hope the solution isn't "humans have an innate desire to create" or "love".

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy have you missed a few pages of IP debate threads. You won't find an ACist here who thinks ideas are scarce. By non-scarce, they mean, if I have an idea, and tell you that idea, I still have my idea. If I give you my shirt, I don't have my shirt anymore. Sure, the resources to discover ideas are scarce. One discovered, the actual idea isn't scarce.

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember which, but one poster states that Ideas are not scarce? I hope they flush that out since that assumption seems false to me.

sure, when a song is recorded, 10 copies or 10 billion copies can be downloaded at negligible cost. still there are huge 'discovery' costs associated with most worthwhile ideas. if people aren't compensated for incurring 'discovery' costs then what incentive do they have to properly invest their time into discovering new ideas.


i hope the solution isn't "humans have an innate desire to create" or "love".

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy have you missed a few pages of debate threads. You won't find an ACist here who doesn't think ideas are scarce. By scarce, they mean, if I have an idea, and tell you that idea, I still have my idea. If I give you my shirt, I don't have my shirt anymore. Sure, the resources to discover ideas are scarce. One discovered, the actual idea isn't scarce.

[/ QUOTE ]

who cares about existent ideas. i am talking about innovation. innovation requires some incentive to innovate. I am saying "what incentive does the average individual have to innovate?" IE why cure cancer if as soon as you find the cure 10000000 companies buy your medicine then reproduce it themselves. the result is a competitive market where no economic profits exist. why should I work on entering a market that would create ZERO (economic) profit? This is what I would like you to address. how will your framework address discovery costs? because if there is no IP in your framework, how do you incentivize intellectual production?



regarding ACists on this forum. there are very very few that seemed to be at all versed in the literature(admittedly I am no genius myself, but I have at least read Hayek). seriously, read the threads, they don't have a basic understanding of the underlying economics they are discussing. you may however, I don't mean to insult you. But regarding you last point, I don't care if i have a friend among the ACists on this forums since the vast majority wouldn't make very good economists.


(FWIW I don't consider myself and ACist but I am guessing almost everyone on this forum would consider me one. at least to some extent.)

[zyqwert]

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if people aren't compensated for incurring 'discovery' costs then what incentive do they have to properly invest their time into discovering new ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

The claims about what inventors deserve reminds me of socialist ideas about how much life's essentials -- food, medicine, housing -- should cost. It's all well and good, but what do you do when supply and demand disagrees with you? Then you curse the hoarders, speculators, pirates, and thieves.

Lots of IP today exists in digital form and can be reproduced for nothing. When copying costs something, enforcement can make unfavorable pot odds for copycats. With no ante to redistribute, enforcement is really impossible. The IP owners are trying to solve their divide by zero problem with infinite (draconian) enforcement, with serious, expensive consequences for society -- not just the pirates.

If you believe creators got to get paid, can you offer a mechanism where that is possible? How much damage are the creators allowed to do to innocent people in their quest to get paid?

I suggest it is better to recognize the limits of economic laws, and protect our other rights instead of sacrificing them in a war for IP rights for digital media.

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if people aren't compensated for incurring 'discovery' costs then what incentive do they have to properly invest their time into discovering new ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

The claims about what inventors deserve reminds me of socialist ideas about how much life's essentials -- food, medicine, housing -- should cost. It's all well and good, but what do you do when supply and demand disagrees with you? Then you curse the hoarders, speculators, pirates, and thieves.

Lots of IP today exists in digital form and can be reproduced for nothing. When copying costs something, enforcement can make unfavorable pot odds for copycats. With no ante to redistribute, enforcement is really impossible. The IP owners are trying to solve their divide by zero problem with infinite (draconian) enforcement, with serious, expensive consequences for society -- not just the pirates.

If you believe creators got to get paid, can you offer a mechanism where that is possible? How much damage are the creators allowed to do to innocent people in their quest to get paid?

I suggest it is better to recognize the limits of economic laws, and protect our other rights instead of sacrificing them in a war for IP rights for digital media.

[/ QUOTE ]


my argument is totally marketcentric? how are you being reminded of socialism.

ideas are the product of a person's investment in their own human capital. how is that not something they own?

furthermore, you take a person's IP away, despite it not being philosophically consistent with the acist framework from which this debate is originating, how doesn't this not necessitate an inefficient market for idea production? the benefits of coming up with an idea for an individual is far far less than the benefit recieved by society for the idea. so society benefits way more than the creator. this seems way more socialistic

I think your post suffers from this notion that reproduction has zero marginal cost, therefore the product comes at zero cost.

instead the fact of the matter is that these ideas are largely very costly. however these costs are discovery costs. however, the marginal cost is near zero for reproducion. but if you set the price at zero, there is no incentive to create ideas to reproduce at that cost.

other forms of IP like trademarks i hope are discussed at well. If an ACist is against trademarking, what does it think of fraudlent companies who try to benefit from other companies reputations by ripping off their products. like the fraudulent money orders the Nigerian scammers make.

[Skidoo]

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The claims about what inventors deserve reminds me of socialist ideas about how much life's essentials -- food, medicine, housing -- should cost. It's all well and good, but what do you do when supply and demand disagrees with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

These issues were discussed last week. See my first two posts on the following page:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=9500675

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If you believe creators got to get paid, can you offer a mechanism where that is possible?

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Make the innovator an offer. Otherwise, it will be settled in the courts.

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How much damage are the creators allowed to do to innocent people in their quest to get paid?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did the imitator benefit by adopting the innovation?