Heaven on Earth

[Alex-db]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I view "heaven" as consciousness without the physical. Thus, you can suffer if you choose to experience suffering -- by distancing yourself from God, by interacting with someone/something that causes suffering, etc. However, the fundamental difference between the suffering in heaven vs. on Earth is the lack of the physical. In our lives, if we are suffering via our sensory perception, we cannot remove it. If we're hungry and can't acquire food, we can't stop it by simply choosing to stop it. If we bang our head on something and it hurts, we can't stop the impulses being trasmitted to our brain and thus to our sensory perception. However, in heaven we lack the physical limitations, and we can therefore choose to end the displeasure by removing the harmful interaction (whatever that may be).

[/ QUOTE ]

You're leading me to imagine that heaven is just like a Second Life program, but you don't have the option of switching it off [shudder].

[soon2bepro]

The answer to your question, vhawk, is better understood when you analyze religon as a control method.

Everyone or almost everyone wants absolute happiness and joy.
How do you convince them that it's ok for them to suffer so you can enjoy? You tell them suffering leads to joy.

But obviously this won't convince many, since they're suffering a lot and not enjoying enough. So you tell them after they're dead they will have absolute happiness and joy, and no more suffering, which is exactly what they want.

It's contradictory, but most people don't notice, or don't mind. They're too stupid and/or too irrational. The system works.


Bottomline - Don't bother with trying to show irrational people that they're being irrational, they either won't understand, or won't accept it, or won't care. Don't bother trying to find rational explanations for rational errors within an irrational theory. If you are interested in doing any reasoning regarding religion, the most productive thing you can do is try to understand how are all of these stupid and/or irrational people manipulated or even controlled with such ease. This should prove quite helpful in several aspects of your life.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm shocked no one has brought this up yet: Lucifer lived in heaven and chose to sin by defying God. So, obviously sinning in heaven is possible. I think many Christians would say that you have the free will to defy God, but that once you have seen God face to face and experienced his kingdom, you would have no desire to sin against him (which would probably get you thrown out of heaven). Think about it: if you're in heaven, and it is as amazing as Christians believe, and you've experienced God's love to the extent Christians believe you will, then why would you want to turn your back on it and get thrown into hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, but apparently Adam and Eve weren't that impressed. Nonetheless, this really just moves the problem back a step. If being face to face with God is enough to stamp out our desire to sin, why wouldn't God come to each of us when we are born, to insure we all get to Heaven? He is infinitely benevolent, remember. If this is a surefire way to prevent sin, AND it doesn't interfere with our precious free will in any way, why wait until Heaven? Why give us a chance to mess up in the first place?

This is assuming sin is punishable by Hell, which was the implication in your post. You said that sinning would cause you to be removed from Heaven and sent to Hell. If you are of the belief that you can sin in life and in Heaven and still ask for forgiveness and go to Heaven, then this doesn't apply. But then, that just means Heaven will be full of sinners just like here on Earth. Plenty of Christians 'know' God exists and still sin because they are human and it is in our nature to sin. I'm sure you aren't saying that it is no longer in our nature to sin once we hit the pearly gates?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer to your question, vhawk, is better understood when you analyze religon as a control method.

Everyone or almost everyone wants absolute happiness and joy.
How do you convince them that it's ok for them to suffer so you can enjoy? You tell them suffering leads to joy.

But obviously this won't convince many, since they're suffering a lot and not enjoying enough. So you tell them after they're dead they will have absolute happiness and joy, and no more suffering, which is exactly what they want.

It's contradictory, but most people don't notice, or don't mind. They're too stupid and/or too irrational. The system works.


Bottomline - Don't bother with trying to show irrational people that they're being irrational, they either won't understand, or won't accept it, or won't care. Don't bother trying to find rational explanations for rational errors within an irrational theory. If you are interested in doing any reasoning regarding religion, the most productive thing you can do is try to understand how are all of these stupid and/or irrational people manipulated or even controlled with such ease. This should prove quite helpful in several aspects of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I'm still young, plenty of time to get there, and I'm on the right trajectory.

[stormstarter28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm shocked no one has brought this up yet: Lucifer lived in heaven and chose to sin by defying God. So, obviously sinning in heaven is possible. I think many Christians would say that you have the free will to defy God, but that once you have seen God face to face and experienced his kingdom, you would have no desire to sin against him (which would probably get you thrown out of heaven). Think about it: if you're in heaven, and it is as amazing as Christians believe, and you've experienced God's love to the extent Christians believe you will, then why would you want to turn your back on it and get thrown into hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, but apparently Adam and Eve weren't that impressed. Nonetheless, this really just moves the problem back a step. If being face to face with God is enough to stamp out our desire to sin, why wouldn't God come to each of us when we are born, to insure we all get to Heaven? He is infinitely benevolent, remember. If this is a surefire way to prevent sin, AND it doesn't interfere with our precious free will in any way, why wait until Heaven? Why give us a chance to mess up in the first place?

This is assuming sin is punishable by Hell, which was the implication in your post. You said that sinning would cause you to be removed from Heaven and sent to Hell. If you are of the belief that you can sin in life and in Heaven and still ask for forgiveness and go to Heaven, then this doesn't apply. But then, that just means Heaven will be full of sinners just like here on Earth. Plenty of Christians 'know' God exists and still sin because they are human and it is in our nature to sin. I'm sure you aren't saying that it is no longer in our nature to sin once we hit the pearly gates?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think sin will be in our nature in heaven. The Bible says we will be made new creatures. As for Adam and Eve, they were deceived by Satan to sin, and Satan is not in heaven to deceive anymore. This is another reason we sin so much on earth: Satan has a lot of power on Earth, and none in heaven. As for the question of why God doesn't come to each of us when we are born, I have no answer, because I'm not God. I'll ask him when I get there, and I believe he'll have a better explanation than any man ever came up with.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm shocked no one has brought this up yet: Lucifer lived in heaven and chose to sin by defying God. So, obviously sinning in heaven is possible. I think many Christians would say that you have the free will to defy God, but that once you have seen God face to face and experienced his kingdom, you would have no desire to sin against him (which would probably get you thrown out of heaven). Think about it: if you're in heaven, and it is as amazing as Christians believe, and you've experienced God's love to the extent Christians believe you will, then why would you want to turn your back on it and get thrown into hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, but apparently Adam and Eve weren't that impressed. Nonetheless, this really just moves the problem back a step. If being face to face with God is enough to stamp out our desire to sin, why wouldn't God come to each of us when we are born, to insure we all get to Heaven? He is infinitely benevolent, remember. If this is a surefire way to prevent sin, AND it doesn't interfere with our precious free will in any way, why wait until Heaven? Why give us a chance to mess up in the first place?

This is assuming sin is punishable by Hell, which was the implication in your post. You said that sinning would cause you to be removed from Heaven and sent to Hell. If you are of the belief that you can sin in life and in Heaven and still ask for forgiveness and go to Heaven, then this doesn't apply. But then, that just means Heaven will be full of sinners just like here on Earth. Plenty of Christians 'know' God exists and still sin because they are human and it is in our nature to sin. I'm sure you aren't saying that it is no longer in our nature to sin once we hit the pearly gates?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think sin will be in our nature in heaven. The Bible says we will be made new creatures. As for Adam and Eve, they were deceived by Satan to sin, and Satan is not in heaven to deceive anymore. This is another reason we sin so much on earth: Satan has a lot of power on Earth, and none in heaven. As for the question of why God doesn't come to each of us when we are born, I have no answer, because I'm not God. I'll ask him when I get there, and I believe he'll have a better explanation than any man ever came up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

So,if we will be reborn as new creatures, and we will have different desires, wants, and proclivities, in what sense do *I* go to heaven. This seems weak...some nerdy version of me is recreated in Heaven, but I am left to rot in the ground?

[stormstarter28]

No, your soul remains the same, but your human nature is dead. Your human desires, wants, and proclivities are dead, but the same soul lives on, either in a different body, or by itself, I don't really know...

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
No, your soul remains the same, but your human nature is dead. Your human desires, wants, and proclivities are dead, but the same soul lives on, either in a different body, or by itself, I don't really know...

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is my personality? Is it in my soul or in my nature? It would make me happy to know my soul was going on to some better place, I guess, but if my personality (what I call 'me') is left behind, it will be a hollow victory. You could tell me my appendix got to go to Heaven, and it would be great, but I don't think I'd be satisfied.

[LCposter]

VHawk, I think your objections are valid. The idea of "transformation" reminds me of Clockwork Orange and the government's experimental therapy to take away Alex's ability to do evil and force him to do good. Burgess seemed to suggest that by taking away man's ability to choose, his humanity and identity were stripped away as well.

I think the only way Heaven can make logical sense is if you are free from human desires. In that case, one's perception of pleasure in Heaven is probably totally incomprehenisble from our earthly perspective. Then again, it might not be such a great sell if the Church pitched it that way.

[stormstarter28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, your soul remains the same, but your human nature is dead. Your human desires, wants, and proclivities are dead, but the same soul lives on, either in a different body, or by itself, I don't really know...

[/ QUOTE ]


Where is my personality? Is it in my soul or in my nature? It would make me happy to know my soul was going on to some better place, I guess, but if my personality (what I call 'me') is left behind, it will be a hollow victory. You could tell me my appendix got to go to Heaven, and it would be great, but I don't think I'd be satisfied.

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I don't know what will happen to your personality. I will say that once you are in heaven, I highly doubt you will actually say, "Wow, this eternal paradise would be so much better if I had my earthly personality!" It won't matter once you're there... so, I guess I'm saying it might be the same personality, it might not, but that is an earthly concern, not an eternal one.