Is this a 3 bet? - Page 2

ackid · #11 10-12-2007, 03:17 PM

I think I'd raise here.

GiantBuddha · #12 10-12-2007, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All day long? You and I are playing different games!

[/ QUOTE ]

In fairness, I haven't been playing a ton of live 4/8 lately, but in my experience there's players who do some really weird things. Like check/calling the turned nut straight, then check/raising the river when the flush arrives.

With regard to flop action, leading would be much more attractive if:

A) the flop were rainbow
B) both ways you complete your straight were to the nuts
C) You had overcards to middle pair
D) You don't have the flush draw, but you do have one of the flush cards, making it harder for someone to redraw and giving you an obscure runner/runner draw

For instance, T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9:hearts: makes the nuts either way, can hit a T or a 9 to win if no one has top pair, and even win unimproved if you only get called by a smaller straight draw.

This hand just has nothing else going for it besides getting there, so you might as well just play for implied odds, which should be significant if you hit an offsuit 4.

One Outer · #13 10-12-2007, 04:48 PM

This is the easiest three bet ever. Even if he's bluffing sometimes you still can't win the extra bet unless you do it.

I'm not sure what GiantBuddha is experiencing with people closing the action checking their flushes. I don't thing I've ever seen that.

This is a set a lot.

GiantBuddha · #14 10-12-2007, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what GiantBuddha is experiencing with people closing the action checking their flushes. I don't thing I've ever seen that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, you've never seen this? Maybe I'm hallucinating. Online I'd three bet this all day, but in live low limit games I've seen people show up with hands "they couldn't possibly have" because they just played it totally backwards. Checking the turn here and raising the river with a set is pretty horrible, too, although I wouldn't be shocked to see that.

One Outer · #15 10-12-2007, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what GiantBuddha is experiencing with people closing the action checking their flushes. I don't thing I've ever seen that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, you've never seen this? Maybe I'm hallucinating. Online I'd three bet this all day, but in live low limit games I've seen people show up with hands "they couldn't possibly have" because they just played it totally backwards. Checking the turn here and raising the river with a set is pretty horrible, too, although I wouldn't be shocked to see that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The set or two pair I see all the time when the flush card comes on the turn. I have seen someone check their flush OOP on the turn and try to checkraise but it gets checked through and then they raise the river. That happens a lot. But villain is on the button. That I can't recall ever seeing.

jesse8888 · #16 10-12-2007, 09:49 PM

You gotta raise/call this. That's all I've got.

PokrLikeItsProse · #17 10-13-2007, 09:11 AM

Sounds like a possible bets-his-weak-hands (including draws) and checks-his-strong-hands kind of player. If he has the flush, he most likely has the nut flush (since he probably would have bet any other flush to protect against another diamond on the river), so if you three-bet when you are beat, you are almost certainly going to get it raised back to you.

You are in early position and could very easily have turned a flush and been going for a check-raise. It takes a lot of fortitude for someone to try and bluff-raise on the end and we've been told this player normally doesn't bluff the river.

I honestly expect the button's hand range to look something like the nut flush, the same straight, and possibly a bluff or 44. You also gain some information if you ensure that he has to turn over his cards and he is raising with less than the nuts here, since some of those hands might not call a three-bet.

Mook · #18 10-13-2007, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, am I totally off base here? Button could easily have a zillion hands that will call our three bet (a set, two pairs, top pair, etc.) and yet he slowed down on the turn due to being scared of someone having a flush. I didn't even think 3betting was debatable? I guess my 5bet would be super spewy but I'm not convinced yet of that...

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in my mind. I'm 3-betting this river every single time at live 4/8 and I'm 5-betting it against most typical opponents. In this particular case, this guy seems to "think" he's tricky - if he incorrectly bluffs a lot, he probably incorrectly slowplays a lot too - so something like the aforementioned J3 of diamonds is certainly possible.

But most of the time even from him - and pretty much always from your average 4/8'er - this is top two or a set whose turn play screams "ZOMG, a three-flush, better slow down here 'cuz I'm scared of losing too much moneys..." 3-betting is unquestionably, indisputably profitable in this spot. 5-betting ... meh, maybe not so much, but then again I'm a low-limit spew-monkey too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mook

Tugg · #19 10-14-2007, 08:03 AM

This fish had Kd9d. I've seen this type of horrible play several times lately.Habitual bluffers who are more concerned with showing off a big play(in their mind) than making money. I saw the same thing happen in Atlantic city recently at a 5-10 game where the BB flopped the nut flush with 5 opponents and got checked down on all streets.

gobbledygeek · #20 10-15-2007, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

ETA: The number of times I've personally seen someone not bet the turn with a flush (even a baby one) when everyone has checked to them at my 2/4 B&M table: 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

Update: That count now stands at 1. I laughed inwardly the other night when I saw a new player do this with the nut flush on the turn. But I swear that's the first time I've seen it! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]