I dunno about these Christians..

[godBoy]

I suppose it all comes down to what we consider reasonable evidence - that is, sufficient evidence for belief and faith in a deity to become a 'reasonable' decision.

The many many 'encounters' have got to make you wonder what's really going on. Perhaps you have never witnessed the change that I am describing. Even if you think you have good 'sufficient' answers that don't involve a God of any description as the roots of these 'encounters' I'm yet to find a good one that seems reasonable. And this is precisely where the buck stops for me.

I am talking directly of the encounter with God that gives hope to the suicidal, sight to the blind, freedom and everything that prophets and Jesus spoke of.

They say that personal evidence is the hardest to argue with , that's easily understandable and perfectly reasonable.

I put it to you that the sorts of changes that occur in the follower of Christ can not possibly be end-products of something that amounts to nothing more than a lie. It's not reasonable by any measure to say that what has happened to believers I know is because of mis-firings in the brain - it doesn't add up, though if it does, I feel confident that I may someday see the truth.

In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

I'm not looking for a diagnosis, or conversion of anyone here. Just wanting to accurately portray exactly what the fruit of belief in God is, obviously people disagree as to how 'religion' benefits people and society - but lets talk about modern Christianity and exactly what it looks like.

No doubt some of the first things that comes to mind is Creationist nit-wits, Pedophile ministers and conservative fundamentalists who are a constant annoyance.

I put it to you that this is in so far away from what a true follower of Christ looks like and how they behave, I wish that there could be an accurate representation of Christians here. perhaps it wouldn't be suggested that some atheists here have agendas if there were an honest portrayal of the faith.

What does the Christian look like.. to you?

[MidGe]

A christian, to me, looks like a blind person, or one in denial. The christian person, against all evidence that the world and life is full of suffering for humans and animals alike, keeps on telling me about a god of love. This goes against all experiences I have, against all I see in the world.

I can only presume that christians are interested in denying reality to get more adherents to its faith. The ultimate benefit of it, I fail to understand. The only thing I know is that no christian has ever explained satisfactorily the problem of evil, from theologians (Aquinas forward) to, run of the mill people that think somehow they have special insights. They are all showing a lack of observation, or a denial of reality, that, I must say, in a way define them as unreliable witnesses to whatever they promote.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.


[/ QUOTE ]


I believe you to a certain extent on this point. What I have witnessed in Christians can be summed up in Jesus’s words in Matthew 10:34-38 ( quote from the New International Reader’s Version )

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I didn't come to bring peace. I came to bring a sword. 35 I have come to turn
" 'sons against their fathers.
Daughters will refuse to obey their mothers.
Daughters?in?law will be against their mothers?in?law.
36 A man's enemies will be the members of his own family.' —(Micah 7:6)
1. 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And anyone who does not pick up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe you to a certain extent on this point. What I have witnessed in Christians can be summed up in Jesus’s words in Matthew 10:34-38 ( quote from the New International Reader’s Version )

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I didn't come to bring peace. I came to bring a sword. 35 I have come to turn
" 'sons against their fathers.
Daughters will refuse to obey their mothers.
Daughters?in?law will be against their mothers?in?law.
36 A man's enemies will be the members of his own family.' —(Micah 7:6)
1. 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And anyone who does not pick up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
This is precisely my point, that not many here truly know what a Christian looks like, thank you for making it.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe you to a certain extent on this point. What I have witnessed in Christians can be summed up in Jesus’s words in Matthew 10:34-38 ( quote from the New International Reader’s Version )

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth. I didn't come to bring peace. I came to bring a sword. 35 I have come to turn
" 'sons against their fathers.
Daughters will refuse to obey their mothers.
Daughters?in?law will be against their mothers?in?law.
36 A man's enemies will be the members of his own family.' —(Micah 7:6)
1. 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And anyone who does not pick up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
This is precisely my point, that not many here truly know what a Christian looks like, thank you for making it.

[/ QUOTE ]

godboy, I am sure a lot of people that are open minded see christians as fitting that mold! The worry is that it doesn't worry you, or them!

[JussiUt]

[ QUOTE ]
I put it to you that the sorts of changes that occur in the follower of Christ can not possibly be end-products of something that amounts to nothing more than a lie. It's not reasonable by any measure to say that what has happened to believers I know is because of mis-firings in the brain - it doesn't add up, though if it does, I feel confident that I may someday see the truth.

In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would challenge this part of your post. First of all, you make it seem like everybody who follows Christ is a happy guy who got only good out of religion. I beg to differ. I know many people who are anxious inside because of his/her religion and religious things bother them but they choose to ignore it. I wouldn't say religious belief is only a one way street to happiness - it definately is for some, I'm sure a lot of people have benefited from it during hardships but it has also many negative emotional effects to people. Some may not reveal them and dare I say the more "fundamental" one is in his/her faith the less he says any bad things about it. But these moderate Christians who I've met can sometimes tell a lot about their personal anxieties concerning the universe, God etc.

It's very hard to tell whether religion has more comforting and positive effects or anxious and negative effects. It probably is impossible. What I'm arguing is that you can be perfectly happy without religious belief - especially if you have not been brought up in one and you have not built your view of the world and your personal image around it.

If I suspected that people absolutely need religion in their lives I probably wouldn't "crusade" against dogmatic religion even if it wasn't true. I don't know. Maybe comfort and happiness are more important than the truth if the truth makes us unhappy. But since I don't think this is the case I am hoping that we can "tone down" the major religions and maybe get rid of the biggest negative side of religion - the effect of dividing people around the world.

Also, you say that you notice so many similarities between the Bible and your experiences that you think it's a unique and accurate book. One thing that is good to keep in mind is that people pick and choose from the Bible. If you look hard enough you can justify almost any view you might have. A lot of the teachings of Jesus are great and even I can identify with those chapters which talk about love and forgiveness and the mystery of this all and stuff so I understand the view of thinking the Bible is a great book. Partly it is, partly it's not. We pick and choose those chapters which we like and we interpret things from the Bible to suit our own view. There's nothing wrong with that and it's completely in tune with our nature but it's good thing to keep in mind. I bet you could find a lot of stuff from the Quran or from the buddhist teachings that makes a lot of sense (naturally since you're a Christian you have a special relation with the Bible but I guess you understand what I mean).

That was a good post by you so thanks.

[T50_Omaha8]

At one point I actually BECAME a Christian and had a solid, firsthand viewpoint into their world. My conclusion:

Something isn't right here.

I'll give them this: Chirstians act more morally upright and are less demeaning towards one another than their atheist counterparts.

But I notice the exact same gossiping, attention whoring, and callous disregard for others among Christians that I do among atheists. Instead of telling dirty jokes, they seemed content with fart jokes. Instead of feeling truly downtrodden by another's missteps, they felt self-justified and superior for not letting these missteps befall them.

These people were different, indeed--about exactly as different as an otherwise normal person who has been indoctrinated to follow certain rules froma very young age would be.

FWIW, this is over a very large sample of different types of Christians, and after a full year of observing such behavior any faith I had developed was utterly crushed.

[revots33]

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What does the Christian look like.. to you?

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Just my experience from being raised Catholic FWIW...

The good: Many of the Christians I've known are extremely charitable people. They are compassionate and empathetic. They help those in need and give their time/support to those who are grieving. Many would probably do these things anyway, but I think their desire to follow and emulate Jesus motivates them.

The bad: They can tend to be intolerant towards certain groups. They have an unhealthy obsession with sex. They feel guilty (and make other feel guilty) for completely natural acts such as masturbation, sex for pleasure, etc. They claim divine authority for their own personal opinions, and try to legislate their moral views onto everyone else.

They also have an air of superiority which undermines their supposed "I am a wretched sinner, please god have mercy on me" theatrics. They feel that the entire universe was created mainly as backdrops for their everlasting happiness. They talk about the "gift of faith" as if they somehow earned their way into an exclusive club. They think they will live forever because they are too important to die like every other living creature. They are irrational and program their children to be irrational.

[Justin A]

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In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have your causation messed up here a bit. The Bible is a contains very good observations of how humans interact with each other and change over time. Your observations of other humans and yourself coincide with this just as you might expect, since you're basically observing the same thing. This says nothing about the validity of the Bible as the Word of God.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

The many many 'encounters' have got to make you wonder what's really going on. Perhaps you have never witnessed the change that I am describing. Even if you think you have good 'sufficient' answers that don't involve a God of any description as the roots of these 'encounters' I'm yet to find a good one that seems reasonable. And this is precisely where the buck stops for me.

I am talking directly of the encounter with God that gives hope to the suicidal, sight to the blind, freedom and everything that prophets and Jesus spoke of.

They say that personal evidence is the hardest to argue with , that's easily understandable and perfectly reasonable.

I put it to you that the sorts of changes that occur in the follower of Christ can not possibly be end-products of something that amounts to nothing more than a lie. It's not reasonable by any measure to say that what has happened to believers I know is because of mis-firings in the brain - it doesn't add up, though if it does, I feel confident that I may someday see the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that they are misfires at all. But I think it's important to recognize that it is at least associated with the brain firing. IMO, this spirituality is very important to humanity and serves an essential need for many people. I am not convinced that you need to believe in the supernatural in order to reap these benefits.

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In fact - What I have witnessed is so perfectly explained and summed up in the bible that it leaves me without doubt that it is indeed a unique and accurate book.

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest question for Christians is involved with this very point. Even if I grant you that the Bible explains everything that you have witnessed, why is it necessarily the case that the rest of the book is true as well?

I think that you would find that the Quran explains the experiences of Muslims and the Torah explains those of the Jews and so on. This does not mean that all the claims of these books are truth however. I simply don't understand the leap from "this passage explains what I see" to "this entire book must be true". It's especially perplexing since we know that many of the stories are incredibly unlikely to be true given what we know about the world and these beliefs don't seem to serve any purpose.

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What does the Christian look like.. to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very similar to the rest of humanity. Lots of good and lots of bad. There is a whole spectrum:

The downtrodden who has been saved and has resurrected his life.

The righteous man who has been raised in his faith and serves his fellow man.

The homosexual who is made to hate himself for his sexual preference.

The war-monger who believes that everyone must believe as he does.

The confused one who can't reconcile the world around him with his undying faith.