Blind defense gets good, then gets weird

[Entity]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

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Certainly. You stand to win a lot less in high rake tables than lower ones. This becomes important in blind defense because its likely headsup so not much money is going in. I didn't realize that 2/4 online had a high rake though since I'm used to the $4 drop at 3/6 live [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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It has a high rake relative to the size of the pot and your expectation when compared to higher stakes games, but a lower rake when compared to live games. This is mitigated by the fact that your opponents are worse in live games and in lower stakes games than they are in higher stakes games, of course, but only to an extent.

You can read a bit about this as written by Abdul Jalib, but it's important to note the differences between games then and games now-- however, the extremes he uses are helpful for understanding the impact rake has on the profitability of hands, regardless of the technicalities involved.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...218ac3ae7bd940

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A rake seriously reduces the number of hands with which you can steal,
as you will be paying a lot for a crapshoot against the big blind.
With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the
flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!
Even with a modest rake, JT and 76s should be folded.

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Rob

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So my game falls into the draconian rake territory since they drop $4 before the flop. Thus, blind steals are basically worthless unless you are holding a premium hand? This is probably doubly so since most of the blinds call anything anyways and will often go to showdown without much. Blind steals are very rare at 3/6 live(I've only been involved in 2-3 of them in maybe 30 hours of play), but its something to keep in mind.

How does this affect semi-steals such as when a loose limper comes in, everyone else folds, you are on the button with A7o? Would the extra 2sb gained make a difference?

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I'm instafolding A7o in the example you gave in this game. Just for reference, if it were somehow folded to me on the Button in this game, and $4 were taken from every pot, I'd probably let the blinds chop it up unless I had something like AKs, maybe AQs, or JJ+. If they take the drop even if the flop isn't seen then I'm not even sure if JJ or AQs are profitable opening hands.

FWIW I'd never play in the game you describe above.

Rob

[MacGuyV]

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this hand is 100% standard and i don't think there are any close decisions, including the river bet/call.

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Mostly agree but I think the flop is close. Too many people 3ball AT/KT and crap so folding pre-river w/ any pair can't be an option if hero choses to C/R.

[Big Folder]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

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Certainly. You stand to win a lot less in high rake tables than lower ones. This becomes important in blind defense because its likely headsup so not much money is going in. I didn't realize that 2/4 online had a high rake though since I'm used to the $4 drop at 3/6 live [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It has a high rake relative to the size of the pot and your expectation when compared to higher stakes games, but a lower rake when compared to live games. This is mitigated by the fact that your opponents are worse in live games and in lower stakes games than they are in higher stakes games, of course, but only to an extent.

You can read a bit about this as written by Abdul Jalib, but it's important to note the differences between games then and games now-- however, the extremes he uses are helpful for understanding the impact rake has on the profitability of hands, regardless of the technicalities involved.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...218ac3ae7bd940

[ QUOTE ]
A rake seriously reduces the number of hands with which you can steal,
as you will be paying a lot for a crapshoot against the big blind.
With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the
flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!
Even with a modest rake, JT and 76s should be folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob

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So my game falls into the draconian rake territory since they drop $4 before the flop. Thus, blind steals are basically worthless unless you are holding a premium hand? This is probably doubly so since most of the blinds call anything anyways and will often go to showdown without much. Blind steals are very rare at 3/6 live(I've only been involved in 2-3 of them in maybe 30 hours of play), but its something to keep in mind.

How does this affect semi-steals such as when a loose limper comes in, everyone else folds, you are on the button with A7o? Would the extra 2sb gained make a difference?

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I'm instafolding A7o in the example you gave in this game. Just for reference, if it were somehow folded to me on the Button in this game, and $4 were taken from every pot, I'd probably let the blinds chop it up unless I had something like AKs, maybe AQs, or JJ+. If they take the drop even if the flop isn't seen then I'm not even sure if JJ or AQs are profitable opening hands.

FWIW I'd never play in the game you describe above.

Rob

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thats not encouraging. Is a $4 drop that much to overcome? even if the players are total morons and the games are LPP with 6-7 to a flop every time?

[Entity]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly. You stand to win a lot less in high rake tables than lower ones. This becomes important in blind defense because its likely headsup so not much money is going in. I didn't realize that 2/4 online had a high rake though since I'm used to the $4 drop at 3/6 live [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It has a high rake relative to the size of the pot and your expectation when compared to higher stakes games, but a lower rake when compared to live games. This is mitigated by the fact that your opponents are worse in live games and in lower stakes games than they are in higher stakes games, of course, but only to an extent.

You can read a bit about this as written by Abdul Jalib, but it's important to note the differences between games then and games now-- however, the extremes he uses are helpful for understanding the impact rake has on the profitability of hands, regardless of the technicalities involved.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...218ac3ae7bd940

[ QUOTE ]
A rake seriously reduces the number of hands with which you can steal,
as you will be paying a lot for a crapshoot against the big blind.
With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the
flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!
Even with a modest rake, JT and 76s should be folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob

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So my game falls into the draconian rake territory since they drop $4 before the flop. Thus, blind steals are basically worthless unless you are holding a premium hand? This is probably doubly so since most of the blinds call anything anyways and will often go to showdown without much. Blind steals are very rare at 3/6 live(I've only been involved in 2-3 of them in maybe 30 hours of play), but its something to keep in mind.

How does this affect semi-steals such as when a loose limper comes in, everyone else folds, you are on the button with A7o? Would the extra 2sb gained make a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm instafolding A7o in the example you gave in this game. Just for reference, if it were somehow folded to me on the Button in this game, and $4 were taken from every pot, I'd probably let the blinds chop it up unless I had something like AKs, maybe AQs, or JJ+. If they take the drop even if the flop isn't seen then I'm not even sure if JJ or AQs are profitable opening hands.

FWIW I'd never play in the game you describe above.

Rob

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The rake has a lot more of an impact when there's less money in the pot, for sure. It's mitigated when there are 6-7 people seeing every flop and it will allow you to play more hands than in the blind stealing examples, but you usually won't be able to overcome the rake in that game -- in the structure you've mentioned it's gotta be costing 7-8bb/100, depending on what the cap is set at.

Rob

[Entity]

FWIW:

[23:49] DeathDonkey: i have 300 hours at alive 3/6
[23:49] DeathDonkey: with that similar rake
[23:49] DeathDonkey: i beat it for $7 an hour
[23:50] DeathDonkey: i think i killed it
[23:50] DeathDonkey: couldnt do better
[23:50] Entity: cap or no cap on rake?
[23:50] DeathDonkey: taken right on flop
[23:50] DeathDonkey: not vegas style
[23:50] Entity: k
[23:50] Entity: +$1 tip per win?
[23:50] DeathDonkey: yep
[23:50] DeathDonkey: so 5
[23:50] DeathDonkey: 3+jackpot+tip

[Big Folder]

Hey entity,

I really really appreciate your insight on this. I'm guessing ill be making slightly less than DD, but hopefully still making money [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Its tough to build a bankroll without online poker anymore. (i know i can still play it but I'm a wuss and can't afford to get into any trouble [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

[Shillx]

I'm never playing 3/6 live again. The DD game certainly is (was) beatable but too many aren't. The Lucky Chances game is a fricking joke. They drop the SB into the jackpot PF and they make the the button post $3 (goes into the drop PF). The game isn't even close to beatable.

[Big Folder]

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I'm never playing 3/6 live again. The DD game certainly is (was) beatable but too many aren't. The Lucky Chances game is a fricking joke. They drop the SB into the jackpot PF and they make the the button post $3 (goes into the drop PF). The game isn't even close to beatable.

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Yeah, they used to have the 2-2-3 blind: 3bb, 2sb, 2button, but they now just have a 3-2 blind structure. I think they still have 3-2-2 at Casino San Pablo and it leads to some real wild games.

3-2 seems like it should be beatable. The people there are freaking terrible, total LPP.

[bravos1]

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I'm never playing 3/6 live again. The DD game certainly is (was) beatable but too many aren't. The Lucky Chances game is a fricking joke. They drop the SB into the jackpot PF and they make the the button post $3 (goes into the drop PF). The game isn't even close to beatable.

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Come play 8/16 w/ me today at Bay101? I'll probably be there around 3pm???