Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can't Find a Way Out

[DeuceKicker]

It sounds like you understand variance, but you don't appreciate what a harsh b*tch she can be. It looks like you've played about 3,500 hands in this current downswing. You can be a solid player and be breaking even after 35,000 hands (at least that's how I've been consoling myself lately).

I know it sucks to use a term to define itself, but you didn't bet for value in the hand you posted. You had the potential to maybe gain an extra bet with one check-raise, but there is a much higher chance that you miss a lot of value against loose-passive opponents. Trying to check-raise the turn and river is what we call FPS--Fancy Play Syndrome.

Also, I think you're taking some criticism to the extreme. Nobody said you're a horrible player, or that you have no clue about theory or starting hand values. If you are 80% solid on starting hands, you could still use a little help. And, yes, we realize that not everybody plays the exact same hands as everybody else. But, for example, it looks like everybody agrees that you're playing too tight.

[jesse8888]

[ QUOTE ]


I'd like to hear your idea of value betting. I am reading SSHE right now and I'm interested in everyone's take on it.

However, I'm curious as to why you think I have no idea of starting hand values because I lost with AK vs A2o after flopping top two?

[/ QUOTE ]

Value betting on the river simply means making a bet the river that will show a profit in the long run. If you bet heads up in position, three things can happen:

1. Your opponent can fold. You took a risk for zero gain.
2. Your opponent can call. Sometimes you will win, sometimes you will lose.
3. Your opponent will check/raise. Depending on what you do, you will have either lost 1 or 2 bets or won 2 when the alternative was to lose zero. Or of course you can 3 bet him.....

In a simple example, suppose you are 75% to win the hand against your opponents range. If you bet, your opponent will call 25% of the time, fold 50% of the time, and raise 25% of the time. If he raises, you have decided you will call, but against his raising range you are only 10% to win. If he flat calls, you are 100% to win. So your bet looks like this:

25% = you win 1 bet
50% = you win nothing
22.5% = you lose 2 bets
2.5% = you win 2 bets.

As you can see, even though you were winning 75% of the time, your bet is a losing proposition.

As for starting hand values....No one has suggested you do not understand the value of AK. It has been suggested, however, that you do not properly value some hands like QTs and pocket 7s and that you should get a little more gamboooool in you when the odds are slightly in your favor.

Hope this helps.

[DeuceKicker]

Upon further consideration, the term "value bet" was a pretty poor choice of words on my part. I didn't apply it to your hand the way it's most often used on these boards, and I don't want to confuse the issue. Value bet usually means, "don't be a p*ssy; bet that river!" If anything, you were probably trying to get too much value out of the hand--FPS.

[BubbleMint]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm curious as to why you think I have no idea of starting hand values because I lost with AK vs A2o after flopping top two?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure anybody said you have NO idea of starting hand value, but you have displayed a lck of full understanding.

From memory, you said you play 99+ KQo+ KQs+ AJo+ and AJs+ (maybe more hands, but definately you had a very narrow starting hand requirement.)

Other experienced posters, winning poker players, have told you how to expand that range. Going as 'low' as 56s and playing 98s or suited gappers Q9s. Of course these hands are positional plays, not to be played from any position.

That your starting hand range was SO narrow shows you do not fully understand starting hand values. Most anybody knows the top end of the ranges, but profit comes from knowing the full range.
I myself was AMAZED when being told to play 'trash' like 98s and Q9s, but I put faith in the forum users and the books I read, and by golly it works.

One more thing about the AK vs A2, I think you done something I was very prone to doing, which was playing for big pots whenever I hit the flop and not slowing down when I could be outdrawn, however unlikely.
The amount of times I sat there thinking "no way he has hit runner runner trips" and carrried on raising, and guess what, he had hit runner runner.

It might say it in SSHE, if not, I have definately seen it posted on these forums

"A bet saved is a bet won"

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You asked "How do you deal with these very loose, very passive games?"

The answer is to play tight, adjust starting hands with position, and most of all value bet relentlessly with moderately strong hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got two out of three correct.

[kyzerjose]

OP - Make sure you understand the theory behind the concepts outlined in SSHE. Study the book, don't just read it. It's not unusual to spew chips when you first start trying to apply what you "think" SSHE is talking about.
FWIW, some of the best LHE players in the nation come from MN. Some of us can be a pain but we do know what we're talking about.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]
This could explain a part of your problems when adjusting to fixed limit from pot or no limit games, if you're saying that you've mostly played pot/no limit before and only played fixed limit in Las Vegas.

Even more so if it is tournaments you've played the most. Cash games are a different beast. (I'm just making sure, I assume you knew this and have played cash games.)

Maybe some the older hands could elaborate on the differences and some of the concepts that go up or down in value when comparing fixed and pot/no limit. Or point to some threads here on 2+2 that discuss those issues.

Maybe you could try to reverse the discussion in the "Limit-->NL" forum that you find under the "Limit Texas Hold'em forum".

I'm no expert, my level is 2/4-3/6 and I only play the more aggressive online games. But as far as I understand here's a few:

- In fixed limit your profit comes from exploiting all the small edges you might have, one bet or raise at a time.

- Deceptive play go down in value in fixed limit. In no or pot limit, you may get your opponents to lose their whole stack in a one nicely sprung trap. In fixed you have to extract that stack one bet at a time. The best way to do it is to just (value) bet or raise when you think you have the best of it. This is even more true if your opponents are loose and passive and don't pay too much attention to your fancy plays anyway - and this is what I've been led to believe is the case in the casinos in US.

- In fixed limit a lot of people will draw with incorrect odds - this is very good for our profit. And they will frequently outdraw us because of this. It sucks when it happens but not in the long term. In fixed limit we often cannot protect our hand by offering the villains incorrect odds to draw - but we have to bet anyway as it is far better than letting them draw for free.

- There's probably plenty more.

Just my quick thoughts, hope they help and if you already knew all this then good - just keep applying it in the tables and you'll come up on top, eventually.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, I put him on AQ/AJ or AX (didn't consider a 2 as an X simply because of his hands I'd seen in the past couple of hours).

[/ QUOTE ]

Buddy, people are telling you that you play poorly and you're not willing to listen. If you put somebody on a hand and never revise your read even though the action screams that you should you will lose in the long run. What exactly do you put him on once he 3 bets you on the river? Does he really 3 bet an ace with a kicker that doesn't play?

[Man of Means]

About the hand in question, the checkraise is unnecessary and overly fancy. Just bet your good hands and hope to get called. This would've let you put in 3 bets on the turn with top two....and when/if he raises the river, you'd feel more comfortable with just calling.

FPS in action (LC):
I raise with KQo, there's a coldcaller, and a tight tilt-prone player makes it 3 bets. We both call. The flop is KQT rainbow and I check intending to raise the 3bettor. It checks through.
OK, I figure he's got JJ, AQ, or something...I'll plan to bet a blank turn.
Turn is a J, which gets checked thru. River brings an 8. It goes check, check, 3bet guy finally bets, I toss in a confused call, other guy folds. "Tricky villain" shows AJs for the flopped nuts. Way to extract max bets, buddy!

[AudioPhile84]

I've had similar problems like this playing 3/6 limit games in my local casino in St. Louis. But basically I've come to the conclusion that you simply can not outplay these people. I repeat: You cannot outplay these people. It's impossible. If you're constantly going to the river with 3-4 people in the hand the only way you will win is with good cards playing a tight-aggressive style but opening your hand selection up a little bit pre-flop with suited Aces and suited connectors. Just bet your strong hands and fold your marginal hands. Chances are high you'll have 2-3 players going to the showdown anyways. The implied odds in these games are usually pretty high so staying in with flush and straight draws is not a bad play. Make sure the pots you win are big by betting straight-forward through the whole hand, and make sure the pots you lose are small by not bluffing, check-raising, or calling with marginal holdings. Please don't complain that I'm stating the obvious because there is not much else you can do in these games.