AKo 2/4 online 2 bets back to me

threeducks · #1 10-23-2007, 10:33 PM

Hello, I am a little hesitant to start yet another thread today. But, I really need some help on this hand.

I don't want to be weak/tight and I don't want to be reckless either.

As you can see I raised preflop and bet the flop and got raised and 3-bet.

My first inclination was to cap it - but that seemed a bit reckless.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Point Blank · #2 10-23-2007, 10:40 PM

you have a reason not to cap the flop other than some 'random' feeling of recklessness ...

threeducks · #3 10-23-2007, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you have a reason not to cap the flop other than some 'random' feeling of recklessness ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that I am ahead here - there are draws and I am ahead of them. But, behind to some hands.

There are 3 villains and I should have pot equity > 33% so I felt like capping it.

But, I did not - so I want an opinion - thanks

Aces McGee · #4 10-23-2007, 11:07 PM

threeducks,

I can appreciate your enthusiasm for learning poker at a rapid rate, and therefore your desire to post all these hands. But your overuse of the forum isn't helping you.

John Wooden, perhaps the best basketball coach to ever walk the Earth, always told his teams not to mistake activity for achievement. His point was that you could exert yourself on the basketball court, expending a tremendous amount of energy, without accomplishing anything useful.

It is important for everyone -- but particularly so for relatively new players whose skill and understanding of the game is in its infancy -- to spend time thinking about concepts.

What you're doing is posting hand after hand, responding to each response by simply repeating what the poster has told you. You aren't learning this way. I have no idea how many threads you've started in the last couple of days, but I do know that it's a bunch, and I know that you aren't thinking enough about each one. You're asking a question, getting your answer, and then moving on to the next question without thinking about that answer.

There are almost endless situations that you'll encounter in poker, but relatively few concepts that will apply to those situations. You're focused on the situations, not the concepts.

If you continue to go about learning poker this way, one of two things will happen:

1)You'll be here, asking essentially the same questions over and over again, until you run out of money or interest;

2)You'll run hot and think you've got it figured out now that you're making money, move up in stakes, and eventually go broke.

I would suggest the following. During each session you play, take note of every hand you feel like posting. At the end of the session, review these hands. Choose ONE, at most, that you feel is post-worthy. Hang on to the rest.

In the meantime, read others' threads. You said earlier that you are nervous about responding because you don't want to embarass yourself by giving bad advice. There's nothing that says that the original poster is the only one who can ask questions in a thread. If you aren't comfortable giving advice, feel free to ask someone to explain something relevant to the hand that you don't understand.

Every so often, go back to the hands that you had questions about but didn't end up posting. I bet that you'll find that you know the answers more often than not.

Good luck.

-McGee

threeducks · #5 10-23-2007, 11:25 PM

Thanks very much - I do not want to wear out my welcome. I go back over each item that I posted and re-read the responses. Then try to see how many mistakes I made. I played 400 hands today and posted 5 or six. Too many as you said.

I wanted to make them seperated so the concepts do not get mingled.

I have learned a few concepts today - and re-enforce them.

On several hands I learned:

I need to 3-bet or fold. Concept in like concrete now. AJ hand.

The TT hand I played like [censored]. I have thought about that hand all day.

Raise, limp, fold, small pocket pairs like 7-7 first in. Best advice is limp with under 9 and hope to get a multiway pot. > 8 okay to raise.

Cold calling with Suited connected face cards on the button is acceptable.

And on a few post - don't spew chips.

The last one AK - weak tight or should I cap it. That hand bothered me.

I will galdly take you advice. Slow down and think some more.

I can always save the hands in Poker Tracker for the future.

Thanks very much.

BadBigBabar · #6 10-24-2007, 12:10 AM

it's also just a general rule not to start more than 2-3 threads in a day

Mitke · #7 10-24-2007, 06:58 AM

* G *

You are not against AA or KK here the vast majority of the time if CO and BTN are capable of even a little thinking. AA or KK would surely 3-bet preflop when given action already. Another AK is also unlikely.

99 or 55 could cold-call and play like this on the flop.

KQ-KT are possible cold-calling hands and could also play like this to protect vs draws on the flop.

The flop has a FD + possible gutshots with QJ,JT,QT and 87,76,86. A FD + gutshot could play like this on the flop as a semibluff, for value, and for free card. A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is also possible.

We can't totally overrule weirdly played AA-JJ or another AK.

However, as the pot seems to be getting huge with BB coldcalling 3bets on the flop I'd cap it. We can't do much to protect our hand on the turn anyway. Might as well extract the value now.

On the turn I had trouble understanding your reasons for the donk. The turn is relatively harmless but if you thought you were ahead on the flop you should have capped it. A c/r would have gotten more value out of it, if you think you're ahead.

Aces McGee · #8 10-24-2007, 09:19 AM

Hi threeducks

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much - I do not want to wear out my welcome

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the point I'm trying to make. Don't worry as much about that.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise, limp, fold, small pocket pairs like 7-7 first in. Best advice is limp with under 9 and hope to get a multiway pot. > 8 okay to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stuff like this is what I am referring to. You're just parroting what the first respondent or two told you in your 77 thread. If the first couple of people who got to that thread had said "fold all pocket pairs under TT in the first three positions," you'd have listened to them, too.

That's what I mean when I say you need to learn concepts, not situations. "Best advice is limp with under 9 and hope to get a multiway pot" isn't a concept, it's a situation. You asked what to do with a certain hand under certain circumstances, and you got your answer. But until you understand why the answer is the answer, you're never going to be able to adjust to certain players, or changing game conditions.

That's a crucial skill in poker. Whenever people post a hand without giving details of their opponents, others start to clamor for reads on the players in the hands. The reason they do that is that the answer to many questions is "It depends." If you concern yourself with situations instead of concepts, you'll be ill-equipped to come up with a solution when the answer to your question is "It depends."

You're also not going to be able to recognize when you get poor advice. This board has some good poker players on it, but it has some bad ones, too. There are several regular posters in the SS forum who I feel routinely give suboptimal advice, and do so without qualifying their words (additionally, there are regular posters who are quite meek who regularly give solid advice). Following bad advice will only mess up your game more.

What I don't want to see is you respond to this thread with an explanation proving to me that you understand why cold-calling with ace-jack offsuit is bad.

Just keep what I am saying in mind. You're thinking about poker, but you're not thinking critically about it. You recognize the flaws in your game and you are willing to publicly admit that, and for that, you are to be commended. But until you start thinking about the advice given beyond the hand you post, I'm afraid that your effort will be wasted.

Good luck.

-McGee

threeducks · #9 10-24-2007, 10:43 AM

Noted - I will keep it down to a low roar at about 1 or 2 at maximum.

I got over excited.

Thanks

KitCloudkicker · #10 10-24-2007, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Noted - I will keep it down to a low roar at about 1 or 2 at maximum.

I got over excited.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

mcgee has a good point here.

although as posters we try our hardest to give good advice, we're not always right. if you disagree with the logic presented in a post feel free to make an argument against it. often the best threads are those in which several posters disagree and have very good reasons for doing so.

dont worry, unless you take it personally, no one here is going to be like "HU FOR ROLLZ?"